Right, but my question is if youre for example, running 8 degrees base timing, and youre on link running say 28 with no knock, what would be the difference if you were at 5 degrees and at 25, you know? I may be overlooking some information because ive NEVER once worried about it, but am i correct in assuming this would work about the same? Or is this the fact that at 8 degrees base and 28 on link, if you were at 5 degrees base and 28 on link, it would technically be running more timing and thus better results?
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Install 264's, new lifters - can not get car to idle
- Thread starter sleepyvr4
- Start date
- Status
turbowop
Well-known member
How would you know you're running 8degrees base though? Or 5 or 3 or 10 for that matter? Link only shows you what the ecu sees and doesn't tell you what base timing is. When people ask you how much advance you run at WOT, you have no way to truly tell them, since you have no idea. The numbers on the logger or link mean nothing without knowing base timing.
I realize that, im just speaking in terms of "for example" to better understand the huge need for it. Ive never been informed or drileld that its this crucial and for years always overlooked it and never looked back because i had great results, though the need for it seems pretty elemantary. Call it luck, good manipulating tuning, etc, i dunno. Im just trying to understand fully the full importance of setting it at exactly 5...because im still under the impression it can be worked around.
turbowop
Well-known member
It's a work around just like using an SAFC to control big injectors instead of a chip. People may have done such a thing years ago, but there are better methods now. Can you tune and have a successfully fast car without using a timing light? Sure, but it's certainly not the ideal method of tuning.
Adjusting timing levels via the CAS is a global adjustment. You wouldn't bump up the fuel pressure with an AFPR just to fix a lean spot at WOT and 6k rpm would you? This is essentially what you're doing with the CAS/timing.
Adjusting timing levels via the CAS is a global adjustment. You wouldn't bump up the fuel pressure with an AFPR just to fix a lean spot at WOT and 6k rpm would you? This is essentially what you're doing with the CAS/timing.
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Quoting atc250r:
Quoting sleepyvr4:
seriously guys - who cares about timing anyways.
I can tell you who doesn't. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Good luck with your quest to go fast on your 14B, its going to be an uphill battle from what I'm seeing here.
John
Just trying to make light of this John - everyone is up in a bunch over this. I used to be because of the issue at hand - now it's beyond my interest...
Quoting sleepyvr4:
seriously guys - who cares about timing anyways.
I can tell you who doesn't. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Good luck with your quest to go fast on your 14B, its going to be an uphill battle from what I'm seeing here.
John
Just trying to make light of this John - everyone is up in a bunch over this. I used to be because of the issue at hand - now it's beyond my interest...
Quoting turbowop:
It's a work around just like using an SAFC to control big injectors instead of a chip. People may have done such a thing years ago, but there are better methods now. Can you tune and have a successfully fast car without using a timing light? Sure, but it's certainly not the ideal method of tuning. Adjusting timing levels via the CAS is a global adjustment. You wouldn't bump of the fuel pressure with an AFPR just to fix a lean spot at WOT and 6k rpm would you?
No i wouldnt. I see where youre going with this. Just like i wouldnt bump the global % on link up 3% just to make up for a lean spot at high rpms.
Im gonna get my hands on a timing cover, mark the spot on the oil pump for reference (because I HATE THOSE COVERS LOL) and then set it properly on this car. Im certain it wont fix the idle issues but im more interested in seeing the results from that and re tuning it.
But i formally apologize to those others i was fueding with just because i never had issued making power and fast cars without doing this and just winging it and having it be what it was.
It's a work around just like using an SAFC to control big injectors instead of a chip. People may have done such a thing years ago, but there are better methods now. Can you tune and have a successfully fast car without using a timing light? Sure, but it's certainly not the ideal method of tuning. Adjusting timing levels via the CAS is a global adjustment. You wouldn't bump of the fuel pressure with an AFPR just to fix a lean spot at WOT and 6k rpm would you?
No i wouldnt. I see where youre going with this. Just like i wouldnt bump the global % on link up 3% just to make up for a lean spot at high rpms.
Im gonna get my hands on a timing cover, mark the spot on the oil pump for reference (because I HATE THOSE COVERS LOL) and then set it properly on this car. Im certain it wont fix the idle issues but im more interested in seeing the results from that and re tuning it.
But i formally apologize to those others i was fueding with just because i never had issued making power and fast cars without doing this and just winging it and having it be what it was.
Last edited by a moderator:
turbowop
Well-known member
I honestly don't think that will fix his idle issue, but that's not why I'm arguing my points here.
I wish I had the car in front of me to be able to diagnose the issue.
I wish I had the car in front of me to be able to diagnose the issue.
sorry if I offended anyone on the board earlier in this thread aka Atreyu's Quest - I know you guys are very knowledgeable and often things beyond my scope or capacity are shrugged...
I like to believe I occasionally bring some good here (see How To Archive) - maybe I'm wrong.
Anyhow - mark another up for the archives lol...
I like to believe I occasionally bring some good here (see How To Archive) - maybe I'm wrong.
Anyhow - mark another up for the archives lol...
Quoting turbowop:
I honestly don't think that will fix his idle issue, but that's not why I'm arguing my points here.
I wish I had the car in front of me to be able to diagnose the issue.
I know.
But weve tried everything else under the sun, it just doesnt make sense why its having idle issued. Theyre just 264's!
No boost leaks obviously, only thing i can maybe blame is the hacked maf, not sure why the cams would affect it more so, but its not liking someting at idle thats for sure.
But im really hung up on this base timing thing. If someone can give me some more info it would be killer, im really just trying to grasp the big picture as to why its so crucial. I understand the technicality of it all, i just want not a theory, but a more "doing it" kind of answer if that makes sense. Ive always been a "doer" kind of person, not so much of a "theory person" because for years i have been successfully "doing it" without paying one bit attention to base timing but always have had awesome results.
I honestly don't think that will fix his idle issue, but that's not why I'm arguing my points here.
I wish I had the car in front of me to be able to diagnose the issue.
I know.
But weve tried everything else under the sun, it just doesnt make sense why its having idle issued. Theyre just 264's!
No boost leaks obviously, only thing i can maybe blame is the hacked maf, not sure why the cams would affect it more so, but its not liking someting at idle thats for sure.
But im really hung up on this base timing thing. If someone can give me some more info it would be killer, im really just trying to grasp the big picture as to why its so crucial. I understand the technicality of it all, i just want not a theory, but a more "doing it" kind of answer if that makes sense. Ive always been a "doer" kind of person, not so much of a "theory person" because for years i have been successfully "doing it" without paying one bit attention to base timing but always have had awesome results.
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Romanova
Well-known member
Wire in the CAS broke due to age/heat and when you unplugged it it was game over?
toybreaker
iconoclast
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Messages
- 3,581
You don't need the timing cover to verify timing.
After verifying your mechanical marks, ground teh connector, light up the motor, dial in five degrees of advance on your snap-on/mac (or other quality, adjustable) timing light, and shoot the cam marks.
They will line up dead nuts... or not...
That would verify a bunch of stuff, and probably pinpoint your issue. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[off topic] Most of the guys here build their own cars, and have done this procedure (correctly) enough times to know why it matters.
Arguing that it doesn't matter just boggles my mind.
That's both scary and sad.
If you don't know where you're starting from, it's all "guesswork"...
On a motor running close to the edge, "guessing" just won't cut it.
After verifying your mechanical marks, ground teh connector, light up the motor, dial in five degrees of advance on your snap-on/mac (or other quality, adjustable) timing light, and shoot the cam marks.
They will line up dead nuts... or not...
That would verify a bunch of stuff, and probably pinpoint your issue. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[off topic] Most of the guys here build their own cars, and have done this procedure (correctly) enough times to know why it matters.
Arguing that it doesn't matter just boggles my mind.
That's both scary and sad.
If you don't know where you're starting from, it's all "guesswork"...
On a motor running close to the edge, "guessing" just won't cut it.
prove_it
Well-known member
See that's what I don't get about people who know too much. Look you are right about doing it your way. Yes it can work, no it's not right. There are people on here who don't have an idea how to do anything, but try it themselves. We are arguing because on this site, we like the right way to be the knowledge that is posted.
Will the ignition timing fix the idle, I doubt it. Here is what I don't get, you say you've tried everything under the sun to fix it, yet we give a suggestion based on knowledge and not winging it, and you argue and say no that's not it. Well logically if you have tried everything, then maybe just maybe it could be the issue. You do realize that after messing with the timing and the BISS a whole bunch you may have multiple issues fighting you now?
I work as an auto tech and tune on cars out of my garage. Whenever I have a problem with something I KEEP IT SIMPLE first then go into the deep end. Seriously, you have yet to try to adjust the IGNITION timing THEN set your BISS. Now, remember if you do it the exact way that the original ENGINEERS who spent months designing these systems, you might get some answers. When you go and do it your way, it may work in some cases, but behold a "ghost".
I have never had a mitsubishi "ghost" issue. I keep it simple and to the books.
Like I said, here on this site if a newbie were to read this thread they might get the wrong idea. This is my concern. If your going to be on this site and your a "high end" tuner, then please remember that there are people who read these threads and learn from them. Like I said if you really have tried "everything under the sun", then what will it hurt if you set the timing and the BISS exactly like the repair manual states? I know you have your pride and your own way, but seriously, when your asking for help and then argue that the advice given is wrong without even trying it first, you'll lose all respect on this site in minutes.
No attacks at you as a tuner, I know SBR has built some quick cars, but remember there are people out there that want to be just like you and they will do it your way. You know what your doing and they don't, and for those people your way will fry their overboosted, under octaned, 160k mile engine.
Again this site is more about education than a huge ego powered cock fight.
Will the ignition timing fix the idle, I doubt it. Here is what I don't get, you say you've tried everything under the sun to fix it, yet we give a suggestion based on knowledge and not winging it, and you argue and say no that's not it. Well logically if you have tried everything, then maybe just maybe it could be the issue. You do realize that after messing with the timing and the BISS a whole bunch you may have multiple issues fighting you now?
I work as an auto tech and tune on cars out of my garage. Whenever I have a problem with something I KEEP IT SIMPLE first then go into the deep end. Seriously, you have yet to try to adjust the IGNITION timing THEN set your BISS. Now, remember if you do it the exact way that the original ENGINEERS who spent months designing these systems, you might get some answers. When you go and do it your way, it may work in some cases, but behold a "ghost".
I have never had a mitsubishi "ghost" issue. I keep it simple and to the books.
Like I said, here on this site if a newbie were to read this thread they might get the wrong idea. This is my concern. If your going to be on this site and your a "high end" tuner, then please remember that there are people who read these threads and learn from them. Like I said if you really have tried "everything under the sun", then what will it hurt if you set the timing and the BISS exactly like the repair manual states? I know you have your pride and your own way, but seriously, when your asking for help and then argue that the advice given is wrong without even trying it first, you'll lose all respect on this site in minutes.
No attacks at you as a tuner, I know SBR has built some quick cars, but remember there are people out there that want to be just like you and they will do it your way. You know what your doing and they don't, and for those people your way will fry their overboosted, under octaned, 160k mile engine.
Again this site is more about education than a huge ego powered cock fight.
Even on an engine with a stand alone you still have to set base timing. Thats why on most software you have to set your timing to static to do this and then switch it back. Like Toybreaker is saying, close is just not good enough when your pushing your engine to the edge. When you say your engine is at 25* timing you might be at 30* or you might be at 20* who knows?
Rausch
Well-known member
Quote:
But weve tried everything else under the sun, it just doesnt make sense why its having idle issued. Theyre just 264's!
Get that timing spot on and see what gives. If you have a logger or anything else that will display the relevant info- log it and post it up.
Maybe there is something hiding that has been overlooked.
Is the ISC moving? good signal from the cas, etc..
I'm still suspect of the cams themselves though too...
But weve tried everything else under the sun, it just doesnt make sense why its having idle issued. Theyre just 264's!
Get that timing spot on and see what gives. If you have a logger or anything else that will display the relevant info- log it and post it up.
Maybe there is something hiding that has been overlooked.
Is the ISC moving? good signal from the cas, etc..
I'm still suspect of the cams themselves though too...
prove_it
Well-known member
Quoting toybreaker:
If you don't know where you're starting from, it's all "guesswork"...
On a motor running close to the edge, "guessing" just won't cut it.
Well said sir, well said.
If you don't know where you're starting from, it's all "guesswork"...
On a motor running close to the edge, "guessing" just won't cut it.
Well said sir, well said.
atc250r
Staff member
I would say that one of the things that makes the base timing crucial is its effect on driveability than on total performance since with the use of things like EMS or DSMLink we can make adjustments to the timing tables based on dyno numbers or dragstrip results. However, something like driveability cannot be measured in such a way so keeping the base ignition timing in the general area of where the factory says to put it will improve the manners of the car on the street, especially off boost. For example, if you are running 28* total timing (2* base and 26* added via the programming of the ECU) at WOT and you have arrived at that number by dynoing the car for hours and it makes the most HP there. However, if your base timing is at 2*, even though you are making max hp you are not maximizing the efficiency of the engine at idle/low speeds. It would be more advantageous to run 5* base and 23* added via the ECU as it would make the engine idle better and make it noticeably more responsive off boost. Not to mention that maybe when you build the same combo for another customer a month from now you can confidently take the timing tables you used in the previous build and apply them to the new one as a fairly accurate point to start from because you know for a fact that all your numbers are based off of whatever you set the base timing to. If you don't set the base then you don't know what the timing figures really are, you just know that the first car you built liked the tables you have but maybe that was because it was running a base of 2* BTDC and when the new one was bolted together the tolerances in the cams, cam gears, head being milled, block being decked, etc... all stacked up to make the middle of the CAS adjustment 8* BTDC so you're starting with 6* more advance right off the bat but you don't know it because you never checked it.
Old school carburetor/points V-8 guys have been doing the "advance it until it pings then back off" for years but that doesn't mean its the best way to do it. Even with those cars, the right way is to get a re-curve kit for the distributor and make the timing do what you want without cranking the distributor around.
I'm not going to say that you'll make more HP in your race engines by setting the base timing or that its going to cure what is ailing the car in question but its not a bad way to start. If you are going to try to just put a mark somewhere so that you can set the timing without using a lower cover you might want to spend the extra money for a timing light that allows you to dial in some advance at the gun. That way you can put a mark at TDC, set the light to whatever you want the base at and then just get the mark to line up to TDC. The gun is changing the actual time of the light coming on to account for that number you turned the knob to and making the TDC mark that number. Personally, I wouldn't bother with trying to make my own mark somewhere, I'd put the upper and lower covers on. The fact that a bad balancer took out one of your engines was an unfortunate incident but we all know all too well nowadays that those balancers are something that we need to keep an eye on so I doubt you'd let it get you again.
John
Old school carburetor/points V-8 guys have been doing the "advance it until it pings then back off" for years but that doesn't mean its the best way to do it. Even with those cars, the right way is to get a re-curve kit for the distributor and make the timing do what you want without cranking the distributor around.
I'm not going to say that you'll make more HP in your race engines by setting the base timing or that its going to cure what is ailing the car in question but its not a bad way to start. If you are going to try to just put a mark somewhere so that you can set the timing without using a lower cover you might want to spend the extra money for a timing light that allows you to dial in some advance at the gun. That way you can put a mark at TDC, set the light to whatever you want the base at and then just get the mark to line up to TDC. The gun is changing the actual time of the light coming on to account for that number you turned the knob to and making the TDC mark that number. Personally, I wouldn't bother with trying to make my own mark somewhere, I'd put the upper and lower covers on. The fact that a bad balancer took out one of your engines was an unfortunate incident but we all know all too well nowadays that those balancers are something that we need to keep an eye on so I doubt you'd let it get you again.
John
I agree. And again i apologize. I know enough about things to not have it be an issue, but to someone with less experience trying it the way i kind of second nature guess it because i know what else to do, could cause issues. I work for a very well known shop. The last thing i want to do is advise someone to do someting "my way" and have it end up being detrimental to the well being of their car.
Ive very certain this isnt what the problem is seeings ive been doing it this way for a looong time and have had no idling issues with the base timing (whatever it may have been at any time.)
I am sorry i shut down the ideas, i know you guys were only trying to help. I am an abrasive stubborn dick sometimes. My way works for me, but is no way considered "proper."
I am going to try this on the 14b car and set it properly, and im also going to set it on my 2g which will be in the 500+whp on pump gas. Its crazy that this is something that i have been overlooking for so many years without caring to realize it was important. Again my apoligies to anyone that i had offended and argued against. This isnt how i want to project our shop as because this isnt it. and me being the most technically inclined here, i do not want to mis lead anyone that would take my word very seriously. Its kind of humbling to know that i have been paying no attention to something like this after all these years and all the cars ive successfully built and made alot of power.
Ive very certain this isnt what the problem is seeings ive been doing it this way for a looong time and have had no idling issues with the base timing (whatever it may have been at any time.)
I am sorry i shut down the ideas, i know you guys were only trying to help. I am an abrasive stubborn dick sometimes. My way works for me, but is no way considered "proper."
I am going to try this on the 14b car and set it properly, and im also going to set it on my 2g which will be in the 500+whp on pump gas. Its crazy that this is something that i have been overlooking for so many years without caring to realize it was important. Again my apoligies to anyone that i had offended and argued against. This isnt how i want to project our shop as because this isnt it. and me being the most technically inclined here, i do not want to mis lead anyone that would take my word very seriously. Its kind of humbling to know that i have been paying no attention to something like this after all these years and all the cars ive successfully built and made alot of power.
Quoting atc250r:
I would say that one of the things that makes the base timing crucial is its effect on driveability than on total performance since with the use of things like EMS or DSMLink we can make adjustments to the timing tables based on dyno numbers or dragstrip results. However, something like driveability cannot be measured in such a way so keeping the base ignition timing in the general area of where the factory says to put it will improve the manners of the car on the street, especially off boost. For example, if you are running 28* total timing (2* base and 26* added via the programming of the ECU) at WOT and you have arrived at that number by dynoing the car for hours and it makes the most HP there. However, if your base timing is at 2*, even though you are making max hp you are not maximizing the efficiency of the engine at idle/low speeds. It would be more advantageous to run 5* base and 23* added via the ECU as it would make the engine idle better and make it noticeably more responsive off boost. Not to mention that maybe when you build the same combo for another customer a month from now you can confidently take the timing tables you used in the previous build and apply them to the new one as a fairly accurate point to start from because you know for a fact that all your numbers are based off of whatever you set the base timing to. If you don't set the base then you don't know what the timing figures really are, you just know that the first car you built liked the tables you have but maybe that was because it was running a base of 2* BTDC and when the new one was bolted together the tolerances in the cams, cam gears, head being milled, block being decked, etc... all stacked up to make the middle of the CAS adjustment 8* BTDC so you're starting with 6* more advance right off the bat but you don't know it because you never checked it.
Old school carburetor/points V-8 guys have been doing the "advance it until it pings then back off" for years but that doesn't mean its the best way to do it. Even with those cars, the right way is to get a re-curve kit for the distributor and make the timing do what you want without cranking the distributor around.
I'm not going to say that you'll make more HP in your race engines by setting the base timing or that its going to cure what is ailing the car in question but its not a bad way to start. If you are going to try to just put a mark somewhere so that you can set the timing without using a lower cover you might want to spend the extra money for a timing light that allows you to dial in some advance at the gun. That way you can put a mark at TDC, set the light to whatever you want the base at and then just get the mark to line up to TDC. The gun is changing the actual time of the light coming on to account for that number you turned the knob to and making the TDC mark that number. Personally, I wouldn't bother with trying to make my own mark somewhere, I'd put the upper and lower covers on. The fact that a bad balancer took out one of your engines was an unfortunate incident but we all know all too well nowadays that those balancers are something that we need to keep an eye on so I doubt you'd let it get you again.
John
Thanks a million for the advice. I am shopping for a good timing light right now.
And off the record, the balancer didnt take out the engine, it just put alot of molten plastic all through the gears and such. My theory now is id rather have it open and get whatevers in it a chance to come out rather than get stuck in there. But im running an alum crank pulley (this could very easily start another debate that i strongly disagree with haha but we all know where that can go) so i dont have to worry about it coming apart again. But in theory if i put the lower cover on and marked the front cover with a sharpee it would work to the same effect correct?
I would say that one of the things that makes the base timing crucial is its effect on driveability than on total performance since with the use of things like EMS or DSMLink we can make adjustments to the timing tables based on dyno numbers or dragstrip results. However, something like driveability cannot be measured in such a way so keeping the base ignition timing in the general area of where the factory says to put it will improve the manners of the car on the street, especially off boost. For example, if you are running 28* total timing (2* base and 26* added via the programming of the ECU) at WOT and you have arrived at that number by dynoing the car for hours and it makes the most HP there. However, if your base timing is at 2*, even though you are making max hp you are not maximizing the efficiency of the engine at idle/low speeds. It would be more advantageous to run 5* base and 23* added via the ECU as it would make the engine idle better and make it noticeably more responsive off boost. Not to mention that maybe when you build the same combo for another customer a month from now you can confidently take the timing tables you used in the previous build and apply them to the new one as a fairly accurate point to start from because you know for a fact that all your numbers are based off of whatever you set the base timing to. If you don't set the base then you don't know what the timing figures really are, you just know that the first car you built liked the tables you have but maybe that was because it was running a base of 2* BTDC and when the new one was bolted together the tolerances in the cams, cam gears, head being milled, block being decked, etc... all stacked up to make the middle of the CAS adjustment 8* BTDC so you're starting with 6* more advance right off the bat but you don't know it because you never checked it.
Old school carburetor/points V-8 guys have been doing the "advance it until it pings then back off" for years but that doesn't mean its the best way to do it. Even with those cars, the right way is to get a re-curve kit for the distributor and make the timing do what you want without cranking the distributor around.
I'm not going to say that you'll make more HP in your race engines by setting the base timing or that its going to cure what is ailing the car in question but its not a bad way to start. If you are going to try to just put a mark somewhere so that you can set the timing without using a lower cover you might want to spend the extra money for a timing light that allows you to dial in some advance at the gun. That way you can put a mark at TDC, set the light to whatever you want the base at and then just get the mark to line up to TDC. The gun is changing the actual time of the light coming on to account for that number you turned the knob to and making the TDC mark that number. Personally, I wouldn't bother with trying to make my own mark somewhere, I'd put the upper and lower covers on. The fact that a bad balancer took out one of your engines was an unfortunate incident but we all know all too well nowadays that those balancers are something that we need to keep an eye on so I doubt you'd let it get you again.
John
Thanks a million for the advice. I am shopping for a good timing light right now.
And off the record, the balancer didnt take out the engine, it just put alot of molten plastic all through the gears and such. My theory now is id rather have it open and get whatevers in it a chance to come out rather than get stuck in there. But im running an alum crank pulley (this could very easily start another debate that i strongly disagree with haha but we all know where that can go) so i dont have to worry about it coming apart again. But in theory if i put the lower cover on and marked the front cover with a sharpee it would work to the same effect correct?
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Quoting SBRJoe:
[ and me being the most technically inclined here
I really don't think so man.
[ and me being the most technically inclined here
I really don't think so man.
turbowop
Well-known member
Quoting atc250r:
I would say that one of the things that makes the base timing crucial is its effect on driveability than on total performance since with the use of things like EMS or DSMLink we can make adjustments to the timing tables based on dyno numbers or dragstrip results.
We may not completely agree on alignments, but damn if we don't agree on ignition timing adjustment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I would say that one of the things that makes the base timing crucial is its effect on driveability than on total performance since with the use of things like EMS or DSMLink we can make adjustments to the timing tables based on dyno numbers or dragstrip results.
We may not completely agree on alignments, but damn if we don't agree on ignition timing adjustment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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