Install 264's, new lifters - can not get car to idle

[atc250r]

Quoting SBRJoe:
CAR IS TIMED. You DONT "need" a timing cover unless you want to trap a gerbil in there. CAS was on the car when engine timing was set, so its fine. No need for timing light, its not a big block. Car is automatically set at 5* JUST by simply setting engine timing right. Base idle timing is always at or around 10 degrees.



WHAT!?!? You're kidding, right? You're saying that as long as the cam timing marks are all lined up correctly the ignition timing is going to be right? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard of in a long time. Whether its a big block, a 4G63, or my dirt bike the ignition timing cannot be assumed to be correct just because the timing marks are aligned when you put the motor together. If the CAS was not adjustable and the cams weren't just replaced I might say there is no point in timing it but since the location of the CAS slot in the cam can be different from one set to another AND the CAS can be moved the timing can absolutely change from the 5* base. Everything the ECU tells the logger timing wise is based on the timing being at 5* or if you run a little more or less MMCD can be "adjusted" in its settings for it. Please tell me you're kidding.

John

 

it sure can when ive been doing it for YEARS!!!!

When set in the middle and on when the engine is timed it will be where it needs to be, and it REALLY doesnt matter when we have a tuning device that has a target max timing setting on it, or like Link where you can alter it yourself. It may matter to some...but in reality, plays little effect beings the ECU will alter timing as needed anyways.

 

[turbowop]

Wow, note to self...don't take any cars needing tuning to SBR. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

Do you guys do the same with the TPS? Just bolt it on and go? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif Is it automatically set once you bolt the throttle body on? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/keke.gif

 

Theres alot of "technical" things that really dont mean as much in reality as it does to the ppl that dwell on the "technical" facts. lets be frank.

My 1g FWD had 780s. EVO 8 MAF, and an SAFC for tuning. stock ecu.

I set AFR's for about 11.5 at 25 psi on pump and was making just shy of 400whp...knock read 20+ counts at all time, car peaked at like 24 degrees timing. I didnt care because no timing was being pulled and car was ridiculous fast.

Point is most ppl would see 10 counts, freak out and spend months trying to get it to go away when it just wont with the situation factored in. Same case here, everything is done correctly. Car idled 100% fine before cam swap. When it decided to idle as best as it can, base timing is between 8-11 degrees on the logger. It doenst change when advancing or retarding the CAS at all. At this point is a mystery because i have 264's in my 2g and it idles like a stock car.

Im not trying to start a brawl, just sying the simple things were not overlooked and the super technicalities of it dont need to be addressed because its nothing that in depth. Maybe if it were some 280's we would be playing with cam timing, but 264's are basically drop in, even most 272's...this is what is puzzling.

 

hahaha nope. Setting it in the middle always gets it close enough usually, but i make sure if im back to the elementary days without Link or such, that i hook a logger up to it and make sure its reading proper % at closed at WOT.

 

[atc250r]

This is exactly why I do all this myself. That is some scary sh*t. Just set it to the center and let it fly! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

 

Not entirely. That always puts it very close to where it needs to be. Its a starting point that usually ends up being fine to leave at.

Any factory car i have seen has CAS at right about in the middle....so thats where it goes for me. Most of the time in using link or some tuning device capable of altering the ignition timing anyways so its not that big of a deal to me ever. But even on the cars ive done that were using stock ECU, timed it and set right in the middle and was completely ok.

 

[CarRacer]

How do you know that? There is ZERO way of knowing that without using a timing light which you claim to not use. Explain yourself please.

 

[atc250r]

He did, he's playing the odds. He can play the odds with other peoples' cars, not mine though.

 

Use any datalogger or any way to motitor the timing. Even if its not 100% dead on the ECU will alter it as necessary at certain % throttle and what not. If its making over 18-19 degrees timing on a stock ecu with little to no knock, and idling/driving fine i see no reason to worry about using a timing light to set it exactly at what it should be.

Unless there is ZERO mods to the car, its going to be altered by bolt ons anyway and will try and compensate for it regardless, whether it be bigger injectors, different MAF, or anything altering airflow, the ecu is going to alter everything to try and compensate for it, and that includes ignition timing.

 

[turbowop]

Any "altering" the ecu does to ignition timing is based off the BASE TIMING that is set using the built in adjustment of the CAS. The ecu always assumes this is set correctly, not "well it's close enough". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif

 

Yes but base engine timing being set dead on is more of an altering factor than the CAS being a mm or two off, especially if you are capable of changing the timing like we are.

But regardless, this isnt the problem, weve tried everything. If i had another MAF to try i would see if the hacked MAF is messing with it. I dont know. It hauls ass, just wont idle.

 

[atc250r]

The ECU only follows what are on its tables based on throttle position and air flow but it chooses those tables based on timing being at 5* base. I could see methodically pulling a couple of degrees out of the base to try to get away with more boost on pump but I can't see just adjusting the CAS willy nilly and saying it must be good. On an OBD1 set up the ECU only can compensate by pulling timing when it sees knock, it has no way to verify that the timing really is where its supposed to be.

John

 

[CarRacer]

I wonder what they do for cars that are to be run at altitude? Do they guess for more timing in that case?

This entire conversation is approaching scary levels.

 

Let me state this ISNT how Slowboy do things. Its how I do things because its worked for me for 7 years.

Cars are tuned accordingly, weve never tuned for altitude levels because we are at sea level LOL.

 

[atc250r]

Quoting SBRJoe:
Yes but base engine timing being set dead on is more of an altering factor than the CAS being a mm or two off.



Since most guys don't run adjustable cam gears you have no way to set the cam timing (which is what I assume you mean by "engine timing") so that is a moot point. Having the CAS off my a millimeter or two will change the ignition timing and if its too advanced it will cause the engine to detonate way before it should. In response the ECU will pull a lot of timing which will result in the car not making anywhere near its potential power.

John

 

Agreed and thats exactly why i dont worry TOO much when using Link or EMS or anything like that.

All im saying is i have never had one issue with this way or one problem. Dont let me tell you how you feel comfortable working on your cars, thats not what im trying to do. Im saying theres noting different about what were doing here compared to the hundreds of cars ive built/worked on/tuned that all ran amazing and made great power. Its not making sense why it just wont idle.

 

Quoting atc250r:
Quoting SBRJoe:
Yes but base engine timing being set dead on is more of an altering factor than the CAS being a mm or two off.



Since most guys don't run adjustable cam gears you have no way to set the cam timing (which is what I assume you mean by "engine timing") so that is a moot point. Having the CAS off my a millimeter or two will change the ignition timing and if its too advanced it will cause the engine to detonate way before it should. In response the ECU will pull a lot of timing which will result in the car not making anywhere near its potential power.

John



absolutely, but if thats the case i will do one of two things, add fuel to try and make up for it or knock the cas back a mm or two and see how it reacts.

On the dyno we picked up 20whp on SleepyVR4's galant just by advancing the CAS a few mm each time. If its not pulling timing, i dont worry. This may be too "seat of the pants" for some, but it has yet to prove me wrong or disappoint in results.

 

[atc250r]

What makes me scratch my head is that I would think that as a business (especially one that is quite "big" in the world of 4G63's) you wouldn't come on here and say "when we tune your car we don't put 100% effort into it, if the CAS is centered the timing is close and that's good enough for us". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif I would expect that you would make sure everything is on point 100% and if you didn't I'd certainly not expect you to be announcing it publicly like this. Whether you use an EMS, DSMap, The Link, or a stock ECU, they ALL depend on an accurate "mechanical" base timing being set in order to give you correct info on what it is doing. I'm sure you've heard the computer saying of GIGO:

Garbage In, Garbage Out

Those hundreds of cars that made amazing power may have made more power if the timing was set properly in the first place.

John

 

[atc250r]

Quoting SBRJoe:
absolutely, but if thats the case i will do one of two things, add fuel to try and make up for it or knock the cas back a mm or two and see how it reacts.

On the dyno we picked up 20whp on SleepyVR4's galant just by advancing the CAS a few mm each time. If its not pulling timing, i dont worry. This may be too "seat of the pants" for some, but it has yet to prove me wrong or disappoint in results.



Of course, as long as you're not seeing knock you are going to pick up power by advancing the timing (within reason) but adding fuel to kill knock when the timing is too far advanced in the first place (which you wouldn't know if it was because you never checked it) is counterproductive and will make less power than a leaner fuel setting with the proper timing setting.

I just can't believe that a shop that is supposed to be experts wouldn't do the most basic of basics before attempting to tune a car.

John