This was pretty simple stuff. Who has been riding down the road in a car with a 4g and the car falls on it face and DOESN'T check to see if that 12mm holding the CAS hasn't moved at all? That's always the first thing I do check because its so common. The fact this thread made it 4 pages just kills me. Sticky this in the newbies section.
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Install 264's, new lifters - can not get car to idle
- Thread starter sleepyvr4
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CarRacer
Well-known member
Quoting SBRJoe:
All im saying is i have never had one issue with this way or one problem.
This is a very civil discussion and I'm glad it's stayed this way but the above statement is baffling to me. The ENTIRE POINT of this thread is to solve a problem that many knowledgable people believe is ignition timing related yet you refuse to try their suggestions. You also suggest that a timing cover for an interference motor is pointless.
These do not seem like the best ways of doing things on these cars.
All im saying is i have never had one issue with this way or one problem.
This is a very civil discussion and I'm glad it's stayed this way but the above statement is baffling to me. The ENTIRE POINT of this thread is to solve a problem that many knowledgable people believe is ignition timing related yet you refuse to try their suggestions. You also suggest that a timing cover for an interference motor is pointless.
These do not seem like the best ways of doing things on these cars.
turbowop
Well-known member
If you have the means to adjust the ignition timing via EMS or some other electronic device like you say you do, why would you use the CAS to advance/retard the base timing? This is f***ing ridiculous. You're blindy rotating the CAS hoping to magically find the correct place? Just set it to 5degrees properly, then electronically adjust from there. This is how people's cars turn into hack-jobs.
How hard is it to set BASE timing to 5degrees, really? Not doing this correctly so that you can delete the lower cover? Really? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
How hard is it to set BASE timing to 5degrees, really? Not doing this correctly so that you can delete the lower cover? Really? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
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prove_it
Well-known member
That's how I did things when I was 14 and before any schooling. Just turn and drive. What I'm reading sounds like backwoods hillbilly tuning.
"as long as it's close" really? Yea it does work when your trying to just the damn engine started for the first time. After it starts you need to set the timing. I can already see the future, so many newbies....
"ah man I just slapped it on and went out driving then there was this wierd sound... knock knock knock.... so I said who is there? and now I'm leaking oil and there is this stick thing hanging out my oil pan. Can someone help me?"
I will never have you guys tune or even touch my car. Hands down I have NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER ever ever ever seen a real tuner just slap it on and drive away. Maybe at the track when you can't find anyone with a light, but most certainly never at a shop.
Ignition timing takes about 5 minutes to check and adjust. It's plain retardly lazy. Newbies and those who don't know much, DO NOT FOLLOW THE SLAP AND DRIVE METHOD.
"as long as it's close" really? Yea it does work when your trying to just the damn engine started for the first time. After it starts you need to set the timing. I can already see the future, so many newbies....
"ah man I just slapped it on and went out driving then there was this wierd sound... knock knock knock.... so I said who is there? and now I'm leaking oil and there is this stick thing hanging out my oil pan. Can someone help me?"
I will never have you guys tune or even touch my car. Hands down I have NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER ever ever ever seen a real tuner just slap it on and drive away. Maybe at the track when you can't find anyone with a light, but most certainly never at a shop.
Ignition timing takes about 5 minutes to check and adjust. It's plain retardly lazy. Newbies and those who don't know much, DO NOT FOLLOW THE SLAP AND DRIVE METHOD.
My entire point is that it is not a timing issue like everyone suggested. Im aware i was quick to jump and seemingly attack the opinions of others and for that i apologize.
Weve checked it with a logger, adjusted it back and forth to see the changes and nothing happened. Sometimes its ok, most times its not.
Im not condoning my methods of doing things, they may seem "backwoods hillbilly" to some but before all the technicals of it were introduced years ago, ppl just turned it and went, if it made power who cared. Im in no means this careless, i just dont worry about using timing lights because ive never A; had one, or B: been in the position where i feel i needed one because ive had other means of monitoring and adjusting to my needs.
And in all fairness, out of all the tuners i know i have never known one to slap a timing light on before a tune. And for the record my methods have no reflection of the methods our tuner would use or how our shop would do it. This is how i do things, and i havent had one car that didnt make alot of power and not one car that suffered from ill effects from it. I also know alot of fast people that do things very similar. AGAIN, im not saying its right or wrong, or "proper", but the way i do it works, and always work fine. Thats all im saying.
If anyone has other suggestions to the idling problem please suggest. But i assure you its not timing, because everything was the same way that it cam off when it went back together with the exception of the different cams.
Weve checked it with a logger, adjusted it back and forth to see the changes and nothing happened. Sometimes its ok, most times its not.
Im not condoning my methods of doing things, they may seem "backwoods hillbilly" to some but before all the technicals of it were introduced years ago, ppl just turned it and went, if it made power who cared. Im in no means this careless, i just dont worry about using timing lights because ive never A; had one, or B: been in the position where i feel i needed one because ive had other means of monitoring and adjusting to my needs.
And in all fairness, out of all the tuners i know i have never known one to slap a timing light on before a tune. And for the record my methods have no reflection of the methods our tuner would use or how our shop would do it. This is how i do things, and i havent had one car that didnt make alot of power and not one car that suffered from ill effects from it. I also know alot of fast people that do things very similar. AGAIN, im not saying its right or wrong, or "proper", but the way i do it works, and always work fine. Thats all im saying.
If anyone has other suggestions to the idling problem please suggest. But i assure you its not timing, because everything was the same way that it cam off when it went back together with the exception of the different cams.
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Rausch
Well-known member
Was this before the advent of a timing light?
Maybe this works for you (somehow), but this is srsly bad advice. If you don't own a timing light, borrow/buy/rent one, or take it to someone with one.
The FSM, et. al, will instruct you on the procedure, and this information has been readily avaialble since the inception of the overhead cam engine. In this case, it's been readily available BEFORE the 4G63T was released in the states. Any necessary adjustment to 'tune up' or repair a vehicle (especially durong OBD I times) has always been provided to allow the end user to perform basic maintenance. Thus the timing marks stamped on a cover as opposed to a special tool.
Maybe this works for you (somehow), but this is srsly bad advice. If you don't own a timing light, borrow/buy/rent one, or take it to someone with one.
The FSM, et. al, will instruct you on the procedure, and this information has been readily avaialble since the inception of the overhead cam engine. In this case, it's been readily available BEFORE the 4G63T was released in the states. Any necessary adjustment to 'tune up' or repair a vehicle (especially durong OBD I times) has always been provided to allow the end user to perform basic maintenance. Thus the timing marks stamped on a cover as opposed to a special tool.
atc250r
Staff member
Quoting SBRJoe:
Weve checked it with a logger, adjusted it back and forth to see the changes and nothing happened.
I don't think you're grasping the fact that what the logger tells you is only what the ECU ASSUMES the timing is based on a base timing of 5*. The ECU has no idea of where the CAS is set so it has no idea what the base timing actually is, everything it is telling you is based on that assumption. I was a mechanic for 13 years professionally and over 20 years as a hobbyist, I can't fathom working on cars in any capacity and not having a timing light in my arsenal of tools. Even if "it is not a timing issue like everyone suggested", as the person tuning a car that has "issues" I would want to eliminate potential problems that cost nothing before I went on to other things.
John
Weve checked it with a logger, adjusted it back and forth to see the changes and nothing happened.
I don't think you're grasping the fact that what the logger tells you is only what the ECU ASSUMES the timing is based on a base timing of 5*. The ECU has no idea of where the CAS is set so it has no idea what the base timing actually is, everything it is telling you is based on that assumption. I was a mechanic for 13 years professionally and over 20 years as a hobbyist, I can't fathom working on cars in any capacity and not having a timing light in my arsenal of tools. Even if "it is not a timing issue like everyone suggested", as the person tuning a car that has "issues" I would want to eliminate potential problems that cost nothing before I went on to other things.
John
atc250r
Staff member
Quoting sleepyvr4:
seriously guys - who cares about timing anyways.
I can tell you who doesn't. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Good luck with your quest to go fast on your 14B, its going to be an uphill battle from what I'm seeing here.
John
seriously guys - who cares about timing anyways.
I can tell you who doesn't. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Good luck with your quest to go fast on your 14B, its going to be an uphill battle from what I'm seeing here.
John
Er, you can't check the ignition timing with a logger without setting the base timing first because when your seeing "24 degree's" on the screen, the datum, or zero point is defined by the CAS being set at a known point, everything the ecu does with the timing is relative to this point.
If the CAS is set to 10 degree's then the "24 degree's" the logger is telling you is actually 29 degree's, because the reference point is not the same as the ecu is programmed for.
Edit: beaten to it by previous poster, damn it.
If the CAS is set to 10 degree's then the "24 degree's" the logger is telling you is actually 29 degree's, because the reference point is not the same as the ecu is programmed for.
Edit: beaten to it by previous poster, damn it.
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belize1334
Well-known member
This thread has taught me to avoid any future affiliation with SBR.
Quoting H05TYL:
Er, you can't check the ignition timing with a logger without setting the base timing first because when your seeing "24 degree's" on the screen, the datum, or zero point is defined by the CAS being set at a known point, everything the ecu does with the timing is relative to this point.
If the CAS is set to 10 degree's then the "24 degree's" the logger is telling you is actually 29 degree's, because the reference point is not the same as the ecu is programmed for.
Edit: beaten to it by previous poster, damn it.
no im very aware of it all. i just dont care. If its making good power, little to no knock and timing is good ay WOT, i could care less about base timing.
BUT, i will borrow a friends timing light, slap the lower cover back on and set at EXACTLY 5 degrees, and im certain it will not change anything. Ill post the results of it.
Er, you can't check the ignition timing with a logger without setting the base timing first because when your seeing "24 degree's" on the screen, the datum, or zero point is defined by the CAS being set at a known point, everything the ecu does with the timing is relative to this point.
If the CAS is set to 10 degree's then the "24 degree's" the logger is telling you is actually 29 degree's, because the reference point is not the same as the ecu is programmed for.
Edit: beaten to it by previous poster, damn it.
no im very aware of it all. i just dont care. If its making good power, little to no knock and timing is good ay WOT, i could care less about base timing.
BUT, i will borrow a friends timing light, slap the lower cover back on and set at EXACTLY 5 degrees, and im certain it will not change anything. Ill post the results of it.
atc250r
Staff member
Even if that's not the problem, my point (and I think that of many others who have posted here) is that a known base timing is a sort of foundation for the entire timing table, without it you are just shooting in the dark. It might not be as important to making big power on race gas because it will be a lot more forgiving to having too much timing but on pump gas its crucial to know where you are starting from.
John
John
yes you are correct, and i never was saying anyone was wrong, im just simply stating how ive always done things and that i have never ever had a problem. But most setups i deal with are at least 50/50 pump/race gas, or E85.
Though on a few cars of my own that were pump gas only i did this and they made plenty of power for a long time. The only way i look at it is timing makes power. If its not knocking ill advance it as far as i can before it starts negatively affecting it, then take it back a few degrees to find a place where it likes it overall, and leave it there. Ive never worried about base timing, but just to maybe prove myself wrong ill set it "properly" and see what happens.
Though on a few cars of my own that were pump gas only i did this and they made plenty of power for a long time. The only way i look at it is timing makes power. If its not knocking ill advance it as far as i can before it starts negatively affecting it, then take it back a few degrees to find a place where it likes it overall, and leave it there. Ive never worried about base timing, but just to maybe prove myself wrong ill set it "properly" and see what happens.
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Quoting CarRacer:
Quoting SBRJoe:
All im saying is i have never had one issue with this way or one problem.
This is a very civil discussion and I'm glad it's stayed this way but the above statement is baffling to me. The ENTIRE POINT of this thread is to solve a problem that many knowledgable people believe is ignition timing related yet you refuse to try their suggestions. You also suggest that a timing cover for an interference motor is pointless.
These do not seem like the best ways of doing things on these cars.
I havent run a timing cover in years. Not since my crank pulley on one DSM decided to let loose, and busted chunks of melted plastic off that got worn into my timing belt and jammed in the pulleys. Kind of the opposite effect i needed from it. 5 cars, all winters, and 100 miles a day to and from work with no timing cover, no issues. Oh my beater automatic actually saw many muddy offroad events, still no timing cover, and still no problems. Just my preference.
Quoting SBRJoe:
All im saying is i have never had one issue with this way or one problem.
This is a very civil discussion and I'm glad it's stayed this way but the above statement is baffling to me. The ENTIRE POINT of this thread is to solve a problem that many knowledgable people believe is ignition timing related yet you refuse to try their suggestions. You also suggest that a timing cover for an interference motor is pointless.
These do not seem like the best ways of doing things on these cars.
I havent run a timing cover in years. Not since my crank pulley on one DSM decided to let loose, and busted chunks of melted plastic off that got worn into my timing belt and jammed in the pulleys. Kind of the opposite effect i needed from it. 5 cars, all winters, and 100 miles a day to and from work with no timing cover, no issues. Oh my beater automatic actually saw many muddy offroad events, still no timing cover, and still no problems. Just my preference.
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turbowop
Well-known member
I don't doubt that you can install a CAS in the general area of adjustment and have the car start and idle, but saying that you can tune the car using such methods is not smart and sets a bad example for anybody looking for advice.
You tecnically can. I understand if base timing is 5, and link says for example 25, its really off my 5. In theory if it was at 4, one would think you would just have to add more timing on link to get the same results as if it were at 5, or if it were at say 8, you wouldnt have to mess with it as much.
Correct me if im wrong because my views about base timing are starting to change because this sparked me to ask alot of my ppl some questions about it. Most feedback i have been getting is its not crucial, it just makes it alot easier with a better baseline to start from.
Correct me if im wrong because my views about base timing are starting to change because this sparked me to ask alot of my ppl some questions about it. Most feedback i have been getting is its not crucial, it just makes it alot easier with a better baseline to start from.
turbowop
Well-known member
The problem with not knowing the base timing is that you're blind when trying to adjust timing with DSMlink or some other form of electronic adjustment. Without knowing mechanical base ignition timing adjusted via the CAS, there is no way to know how much advance you're truly running, regardless of what you're using to tune with.
You might be able to tune WOT by using a logger and going off knock counts or wideband, but you can't use timing as a solid data point, since it's an unknown at that point. It's also good to have base ignition timing set to factory levels for driveability at anything other than WOT, since the ecu bases so much from it.
You might be able to tune WOT by using a logger and going off knock counts or wideband, but you can't use timing as a solid data point, since it's an unknown at that point. It's also good to have base ignition timing set to factory levels for driveability at anything other than WOT, since the ecu bases so much from it.
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