Yeah we thought that at first maybe, but it happened immediately after the cam install and was fine 30 min before.
But whatever, haha its fine now so thats all i can say LOL.
But whatever, haha its fine now so thats all i can say LOL.
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Install 264's, new lifters - can not get car to idle
- Thread starter sleepyvr4
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turbowop
Well-known member
Quoting SBRJoe:
Who woulda thunk it.... against all laws based on theory, Stock FPR and wally 255HP and doing just fine. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif
It works, but I would still rather be able to tune off of and be able to adjust the linear fuel curve. That's just me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
503 had a Supra pump in it with a stock FPR. It ran just fine, although fuel mileage wasn't that great. It's better now that I pulled off the MAFT/GMmaf setup and installed a 2gMaf/SAFC and 190lph pump.
Perhaps the great fuel mileage is helped by the fact that the car went on a serious diet?
Who woulda thunk it.... against all laws based on theory, Stock FPR and wally 255HP and doing just fine. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif
It works, but I would still rather be able to tune off of and be able to adjust the linear fuel curve. That's just me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
503 had a Supra pump in it with a stock FPR. It ran just fine, although fuel mileage wasn't that great. It's better now that I pulled off the MAFT/GMmaf setup and installed a 2gMaf/SAFC and 190lph pump.
Perhaps the great fuel mileage is helped by the fact that the car went on a serious diet?
Id have to say the weight watchers program helped significantly in the mileage department hahaha.
Rausch
Well-known member
Quoting SBRJoe:
Who woulda thunk it.... against all laws based on theory, Stock FPR and wally 255HP and doing just fine. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif
This is what is commonly referred to as 'hacking'. Seriously. If you're going to do something (Especially on someone else's pride and joy/toy/DD/whatever), it's worth taking the extra time and $$ to DO CORRECTLY.
Not setting the BASE timing (Like the nice engineers at Mitsu ask you to), and things like above are just bad information to spread around. I realize you have come to this conclusion on the base timing debate, but for the love of all that is mechanical, just DO THINGS PROPERLY.
I'm not trying to be harsh, but damn dude, "If it ain't broke (Right now, in this case), don't fix it" ? - Not a good business plan, just saying...
This is not subjective, it's math. There is a correct answer. And in this case the correct action is to use a system that can cope with the added volume of fuel. Honest.
Washed out cylinders/bearings and a million other little things that turn into HUGE repairs can be avoided by proper 'Modding' of a vehicle.
Related in this instance to SBR or not, the 'hack' mentality that has long surrounded that company sure isn't getting any defense from it's representatives. You claim not to be affiliated in this case, yet it's in YOUR USERNAME- Expect the two to be tied together, as that was your intention, whether you realize it or not.....
And I will reiterate: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek3run.gif
Who woulda thunk it.... against all laws based on theory, Stock FPR and wally 255HP and doing just fine. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif
This is what is commonly referred to as 'hacking'. Seriously. If you're going to do something (Especially on someone else's pride and joy/toy/DD/whatever), it's worth taking the extra time and $$ to DO CORRECTLY.
Not setting the BASE timing (Like the nice engineers at Mitsu ask you to), and things like above are just bad information to spread around. I realize you have come to this conclusion on the base timing debate, but for the love of all that is mechanical, just DO THINGS PROPERLY.
I'm not trying to be harsh, but damn dude, "If it ain't broke (Right now, in this case), don't fix it" ? - Not a good business plan, just saying...
This is not subjective, it's math. There is a correct answer. And in this case the correct action is to use a system that can cope with the added volume of fuel. Honest.
Washed out cylinders/bearings and a million other little things that turn into HUGE repairs can be avoided by proper 'Modding' of a vehicle.
Related in this instance to SBR or not, the 'hack' mentality that has long surrounded that company sure isn't getting any defense from it's representatives. You claim not to be affiliated in this case, yet it's in YOUR USERNAME- Expect the two to be tied together, as that was your intention, whether you realize it or not.....
And I will reiterate: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek3run.gif
I refuse to argue my points anymore. So i dont care what you have to reiterate. I also find it nearly laughable that you think that anyone could ever have to worry about cyl or bearing wash out because of the use of a stock FPR, maybe if we had an 044 inline, hell yeah, but not one single in tank pump, come on now... and in reference to your math reference, there is not ONE answer. There may be one theory of a preferred method, but what works is facts, and to each his own for their method of making it work. Talk to the old school guys like Buschur, or Huml when they used to run passes 10 years ago. Theyd say, set AFRS and crank the VPC knobs till it went faster! and guess what, it worked for them then, whats different now except for the president? The way i choose to do certain things are not reckless. Theyre merely proven methods that have yet to prove themselves otherwise for nearly a decade. Its nowhere near "hacking". This thread is long over. The end.
PS i think the Sleepy would die of a coronary laughing at the statement you made about this bucket being his pride and joy haha.
PS i think the Sleepy would die of a coronary laughing at the statement you made about this bucket being his pride and joy haha.
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^^^ Told ya. lol
Rausch
Well-known member
So much for 'not arguing your points.' (Nice edit BTW /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)
Way to take things out of context though.....
I got nothing anymore- you win. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Way to take things out of context though.....
I got nothing anymore- you win. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
You know just as well as i do tones and such are easily misinterpreted via internet.
And np on the edit, more came to me as i sat. LOL.
And np on the edit, more came to me as i sat. LOL.
Olson
Well-known member
Kinda unrelated but who cares.
Soooo you telling me if you have a larger pump like I do, walbro 250 you NEED a FPR..... hrm intresting I've been running mine for 2 years getting 30mpg with 990 fic's. I also know a other ppl running the same thing but with larger injectors and E85 and no FPR. ...... sooo why should I run a FPR
Soooo you telling me if you have a larger pump like I do, walbro 250 you NEED a FPR..... hrm intresting I've been running mine for 2 years getting 30mpg with 990 fic's. I also know a other ppl running the same thing but with larger injectors and E85 and no FPR. ...... sooo why should I run a FPR
^^ THATS WHAT IM SAYIN!! My friend Pat Donaldson (current record holder for fastest Evo 16g without nitrous) was running 1050's, with E85 and all stock lines and FPR, car went 10.33@134. THANK YOU for backing up my "hacking" point. LOL
EDIT: The car also was never set for base timing. It was "set in the middle and tuned with link" LOL. double whammy.
EDIT: The car also was never set for base timing. It was "set in the middle and tuned with link" LOL. double whammy.
Last edited by a moderator:
Quoting SBRJoe:
^^ THATS WHAT IM SAYIN!! My friend Pat Donaldson (current record holder for fastest Evo 16g without nitrous) was running 1050's, with E85 and all stock lines and FPR, car went 10.33@134. THANK YOU for backing up my "hacking" point. LOL
EDIT: The car also was never set for base timing. It was "set in the middle and tuned with link" LOL. double whammy.
EMBARRASSING.
Yeah - well you just got lucky. And so did Pat. And so did I. And Shortio. And Huml. ?
Let's just keep rolling the dice Joe - I'm suggesting random bolts dropped into the head and 87 octane and flapper welded shut.
Now that's backyard tooning...
^^ THATS WHAT IM SAYIN!! My friend Pat Donaldson (current record holder for fastest Evo 16g without nitrous) was running 1050's, with E85 and all stock lines and FPR, car went 10.33@134. THANK YOU for backing up my "hacking" point. LOL
EDIT: The car also was never set for base timing. It was "set in the middle and tuned with link" LOL. double whammy.
EMBARRASSING.
Yeah - well you just got lucky. And so did Pat. And so did I. And Shortio. And Huml. ?
Let's just keep rolling the dice Joe - I'm suggesting random bolts dropped into the head and 87 octane and flapper welded shut.
Now that's backyard tooning...
toybreaker
iconoclast
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Messages
- 3,581
Gentlemen, can we just end this silly thread, please?
The whole pump/fpr/injector thing is only valid if you look at the whole picture.
With a big pump/small injector/stock fpr, the fuel pr3ssure will be unstable/creep a large percentage of the time.
With a big pump/big injector/stock fpr The fuel pressure may creep.
A big pump/big injector/quality adjustable fpr is a sweet set-up, and very tunable.
Disclaimer: I am not a tuner, nor do I wish to become one.
I'm just a tech who's been in the business before most of you were born and these relatively pointless discussions irritate me.
There's empirical data that there *may* be issues with trims on the big pump/small injector/stock fpr combo.
That's enough for me to get out a logger and check the trims, as well as a fuel pressure gauge. (*)
High on the bottom?
Fix it
If it's not, I'd be looking at the high trims, and pressure at higher fuel flows.
If they sag, I'd be looking for a restriction like a bent outlet tube at the tank or a twisted line at the filter inlet, because...
... it has been my personal experience that the fuel pressure will be unstable on a big pump, at low fuel demands with the stock fpr and small injectors...
and if it doesn't...
it's because there's a restriction somewhere on the supply side...
...or you're not feeding the pump a clean voltage/you're relying on the factory pump ground... both of which will kill the delivery rate.
*That's measured fuel pressure, using a quality gauge, not a guess, or an underhood pos "gauge" that varies with temp...
Sorry to be so blunt, but many of you are showing your total ignorance to how things actually work.
It's simple math kiddies.
Triple the volume pumps running small injector/low demand set-ups *may* over run the volume the stock fpr can bypass, and when they do, idle problems *can* occur.
This thread was about an idle issue, so a few people suggested you look at that aspect.
Those people who suggested you look at that aspect were only trying to help, as many of them have experienced that phenomonenum.
Dis-regard their experience, and you might as well not even post a thread asking for imput... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif
The whole pump/fpr/injector thing is only valid if you look at the whole picture.
With a big pump/small injector/stock fpr, the fuel pr3ssure will be unstable/creep a large percentage of the time.
With a big pump/big injector/stock fpr The fuel pressure may creep.
A big pump/big injector/quality adjustable fpr is a sweet set-up, and very tunable.
Disclaimer: I am not a tuner, nor do I wish to become one.
I'm just a tech who's been in the business before most of you were born and these relatively pointless discussions irritate me.
There's empirical data that there *may* be issues with trims on the big pump/small injector/stock fpr combo.
That's enough for me to get out a logger and check the trims, as well as a fuel pressure gauge. (*)
High on the bottom?
Fix it
If it's not, I'd be looking at the high trims, and pressure at higher fuel flows.
If they sag, I'd be looking for a restriction like a bent outlet tube at the tank or a twisted line at the filter inlet, because...
... it has been my personal experience that the fuel pressure will be unstable on a big pump, at low fuel demands with the stock fpr and small injectors...
and if it doesn't...
it's because there's a restriction somewhere on the supply side...
...or you're not feeding the pump a clean voltage/you're relying on the factory pump ground... both of which will kill the delivery rate.
*That's measured fuel pressure, using a quality gauge, not a guess, or an underhood pos "gauge" that varies with temp...
Sorry to be so blunt, but many of you are showing your total ignorance to how things actually work.
It's simple math kiddies.
Triple the volume pumps running small injector/low demand set-ups *may* over run the volume the stock fpr can bypass, and when they do, idle problems *can* occur.
This thread was about an idle issue, so a few people suggested you look at that aspect.
Those people who suggested you look at that aspect were only trying to help, as many of them have experienced that phenomonenum.
Dis-regard their experience, and you might as well not even post a thread asking for imput... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif
^^ Deal.
Idle problem fixed itself. Thread closed.
Idle problem fixed itself. Thread closed.
Last edited by a moderator:
Barnes
Well-known member
What I don't understand is why some people supposedly have no problems, and others have many problems with the stock FPR. I had several friends back in the day that cleared up a lot of driveability and knock problems with AFPRs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
^^ every car is completely different. Example, venting BOV's to the atmosphere with a pre turbo MAF. Some idle funny but run fine, some have NO ill effects at all, and some are nearly not drivable.
Hell my beater automatic with stock 450's, maf, fuel pump and 14b running 16psi didnt care when i ran 87 octane in it in the winter!! But my cousins auto which is BONE STOCK with a 13g, will phantom knock like there is no end unless it sees 93, it wont even comply when using 91. Every DSM is so different, and will all respond differently for the most part from the next one.
Hell my beater automatic with stock 450's, maf, fuel pump and 14b running 16psi didnt care when i ran 87 octane in it in the winter!! But my cousins auto which is BONE STOCK with a 13g, will phantom knock like there is no end unless it sees 93, it wont even comply when using 91. Every DSM is so different, and will all respond differently for the most part from the next one.
Hertz
Staff member
Okay, we get it. You're successful because you're fast, not because you're right.
You're highlighting this issue by mentioning E85 in your defense. E85 requires more volume period, so you're escaping the limits of the stock FPR to hold the pressure at idle by consuming more fuel (the differential in injector vs. pump pressure is the problem). Okay, so maybe for E85 you don't need it, but in regards to this thread you're talking about pump gas.
There's also been a high incidence of stock FPR failure. Mine started to leak past the diaphragm into the vacuum line after about 150k miles, maybe 20k of those miles with a rewired Walboro 255 (non-HP). [BTW Olson, no such thing as a Walboro 250, so add that to the credibility of this thread] What do you do when the diaphragm ruptures and your fuel volume drops during a pass? How well atomized is that fuel that gets sucked into the intake when you then lift off throttle?
Now for gasoline, it IS an issue and it IS fact that a Walboro 255HP will overflow the stock turbo FPR. How does that affect you? Well, many people are able to tune around it. Is it an issue at WOT and for going fast 1/4 mile at a time? No, it is a relatively small issue then. But this isn't DSM Tooners or whatever, nor is the VR-4 a perfect base for a drag car, so overall we're interested in having well-tuned, properly maintained, streetable cars.
Don't tell me you're getting 30mpg, that has almost nothing to do with this issue. I want to know how far off of linear your maps are without a regulator. How bad do you bog on tip-in throttle? How bad is the exhaust popping when you go off-throttle because of the excess fuel, carbon buildup in the manifold and turbo. How much timing range are you missing by having your crazy hacked SAFC piggyback cranked to the moon? What's the diminished life of your sparkplugs? Thinning of your oil and rings getting washed down. Cylinder wear. It's not a cut-and-dried black/white issue of "Is the car fast? Yes. I must be right."
This whole timing fiasco... if you were serious or intelligent about tuning, you might want the extra few degrees of mechanical timing you're throwing away by not setting it correctly. If you have some magic feel for setting it by the seat of your pants, or some esoteric intake/exhaust setup that changes the dynamic so drastically that you need to change the valve timing, get adjustable cam gears and tinker with those.
Now this isn't one of those sites that limits FNGuys or has some secret advisory board that nominates and elects members... I want this to be a place where the information is free to those who deserve it and respect it. We're not going to ban anyone for disagreeing on matters of opinion, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.
You're highlighting this issue by mentioning E85 in your defense. E85 requires more volume period, so you're escaping the limits of the stock FPR to hold the pressure at idle by consuming more fuel (the differential in injector vs. pump pressure is the problem). Okay, so maybe for E85 you don't need it, but in regards to this thread you're talking about pump gas.
There's also been a high incidence of stock FPR failure. Mine started to leak past the diaphragm into the vacuum line after about 150k miles, maybe 20k of those miles with a rewired Walboro 255 (non-HP). [BTW Olson, no such thing as a Walboro 250, so add that to the credibility of this thread] What do you do when the diaphragm ruptures and your fuel volume drops during a pass? How well atomized is that fuel that gets sucked into the intake when you then lift off throttle?
Now for gasoline, it IS an issue and it IS fact that a Walboro 255HP will overflow the stock turbo FPR. How does that affect you? Well, many people are able to tune around it. Is it an issue at WOT and for going fast 1/4 mile at a time? No, it is a relatively small issue then. But this isn't DSM Tooners or whatever, nor is the VR-4 a perfect base for a drag car, so overall we're interested in having well-tuned, properly maintained, streetable cars.
Don't tell me you're getting 30mpg, that has almost nothing to do with this issue. I want to know how far off of linear your maps are without a regulator. How bad do you bog on tip-in throttle? How bad is the exhaust popping when you go off-throttle because of the excess fuel, carbon buildup in the manifold and turbo. How much timing range are you missing by having your crazy hacked SAFC piggyback cranked to the moon? What's the diminished life of your sparkplugs? Thinning of your oil and rings getting washed down. Cylinder wear. It's not a cut-and-dried black/white issue of "Is the car fast? Yes. I must be right."
This whole timing fiasco... if you were serious or intelligent about tuning, you might want the extra few degrees of mechanical timing you're throwing away by not setting it correctly. If you have some magic feel for setting it by the seat of your pants, or some esoteric intake/exhaust setup that changes the dynamic so drastically that you need to change the valve timing, get adjustable cam gears and tinker with those.
Now this isn't one of those sites that limits FNGuys or has some secret advisory board that nominates and elects members... I want this to be a place where the information is free to those who deserve it and respect it. We're not going to ban anyone for disagreeing on matters of opinion, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.
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