Swapped in HKS cams, now no compression / Cooling issue [BOTH RESOLVED]

[prove_it]

New ones should come collapsed since they have never seen oil pressure. Still check them though. Make sure the tip will wiggle in and out.

 

[GVR4kauai]

I've always soaked them overnight in oil and then bleed them right before install, to be on the safe side. Its one thing if its your car and you don't or do the wait method, but when your doing it for a customer car I won't take the chance! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[EfiniX]

Quoting GSTwithPSI:
The cylinder head rebuilt by Dale Morss Machine in Pensacola. He told me it was was hot tanked, passages cleaned, decked, 3 angle valve job, oil port mod, new valve seals, BC1100 valve springs, and upgraded manifold studs. I installed 3G revised lifters, and initially, the stock cams. The only thing I checked before I installed it was the deck surface. It checked out fine per the procedure I followed outlined in the FSM. Here are a few shots of the head before I installed it. Maybe someone can see something that looks off that maybe I didn't.



I got my head from Dale as well. It took the 264/264 Delta Cam regrinds without issue. I did get the revised lifters to deal with some tick, but the car ran fine before and after the lifter installation. Now I can't speak to the bleed/no-bleed since my cams went into when the engine was going back together, but I do know my lifters needed to be shimmed to take the regrinds correctly. Is it possible that the HKS cams are a bit too big and just not letting the valves close all the way?

 

[manikbastrd]

As far as I know/have always heard, the HKS 272/272 are drop in cams. No shims needed. Technically speaking you shouldn't need aftermarket springs to handle them either, but as anyone can tell you, our valvetrains are usually pretty tired and neglected so it is not recommended.

 

[prove_it]

I never recommend running bigger cams, even 264's, on stock springs. Dale (bogusSvo) had a thread showing the factory springs lose almost half the spring pressure by the time someone wants cams.

 

[vr4play]

I never bleed my lifters when I swap cams. I just let it sit until they bleed down. Also looking at pictures your timing marks are off by 1 tooth. The marks are slightly pointing up and they should be slightly pointing down. I can tell its off because your balance shaft is off 1/2 a tooth. It should be on dead nuts. If you make adjustments it will be. I get cars in the shop all the time where the belt is off 1 tooth like that. I would put the hks cams back in fix the timing and let it sit overnight, roll it over by had a few tims and then just try and start the thing and quit worrying about compression. If it starts let it warm up and then ck compression.

 

[turbowop]

His timing looks spot on to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

 

[vr4play]

If you look closely at the balance shaft gear you will see that the pointer is pointing at the edge of the mark and not the center. This is a common mistake that I fix for people quite often.

 

[prove_it]

That wouldn't be a full tooth off...That difference is too minor.

 

[turbowop]

Exactly. The whole assembly is probably rotated that tiny bit.

 

[vr4play]

I can guarantee one of the cams is off. The middle marks on the cam gears should go down slightly not up. I'm not trying to start a ruckus I just want to help. I see this mistake often. It's a common mistake. I worked at the Mitsu dealer back when these cars were not that old. Without the cam tool the only way to make sure all is well is by looking at the balance shaft gear. If its exact it's right. If its off 1/2 a tooth it's wrong. Simple as that. All the other marks aren't off a little so it should be exact. I can say I've probably done more t-belt jobs on one of these motors than most of the people on here so I am confident it's not right. I just fixed and Evo a couple weeks ago that had the belt on just like that. Car only made 360 hp on the dyno with a FP green. Re-did the timing belt and tweeked the tune and it made 460 and spooled up much faster. The only mark that was visibly off was the balance shaft mark by half a tooth.

 

[prove_it]

Mine is like that. I make 320whp with a S16g, so your saying if I correct the "half" tooth, I'll gain 100whp?

 

[vr4play]

Probably not, this was a 9 with mivec and the previous owner had it tuned and the tuner attempted to tune around the problem. The biggest difference was the spool time. Your car may be right but in the picture this one clearly looks off to me. My old setup made 305hp 350tq on 18 psi and pump gas on stock cams with a S16g tuned with an SAFC so your numbers sound about correct. I'm done arguing about this. I am just trying to help. The car is torn apart far enough he can putz with it if he wants and see if he can get it exact. If not then it is what it is. It has nothing to do with his compression numbers.

 

[prove_it]

Who's arguing? Giving sh*t, it looks on to me given the camera angles. I've fought with these belts so many times in the past to have them close like that and keep messing with it to get it right. It's all about the tensioner and preload on the tensioner pulley. I've noticed it can influence the marks by little bits. The tooth count between the gears is what really really matters. Ain't nobody got time for that though.

 

[coyotes]

Interesting information to know, vr4play. I know with confidence my timing was lined up more accurately than on Brett's motor (took pictures), but I figured the slight difference in how it lines up can be due to machined down cylinder heads, different thickness head gaskets, etc.

 

[turbowop]

Based on the pics, the main crank sprocket and balance shaft sprocket are rotated in a way that the timing marks both point at the corner of their notches. Changing that will not change the marks on the cam sprockets and moving the cam sprockets themselves will make too large of a change. IMO, I still say the timing looks just fine. I've been doing timing belts on these cars for a long time as well...

 

[vr4play]

I didn't blow up the crank picture and now looking at it it is possible that it is just the camera angle.

 

[GVR4kauai]

Ya I agree timing looks fine! This is why I use the jay racing complete timing tool kit! Never had one issue or second guess using it! Even had a good friend of mine try and tell me his method always worked and the kit really wasn't needed. Well tell you what, he sure did thank me when he over tightened his timing belt causing the cams to not be happy, horrible noise lol. I the friend I am at the race track even, redid his timing for him in the dirt. Didn't say one word because he new lol. He helped but said I feel like a dump ass and would rather you set it for me. And of course we all know what happen, perfect timing and tension thanks to me and my tools haha. He's really lucky I love working on mitsubishi motors. If he had a honduh like his other friends I may have not helped JJ!

He's still trying to pass my fwd times in the eclipse lol. And his car has way more under the hood than mine, like 200-250 more hp lol. But it's not always what's under your hood that gets you fast e.t.'s, still gotta know how to drive and tune if you really wanna go big! Trying to run 30-40psi and not really understanding how to tune makes for some interesting and scary racing lol. Which is why I make good side money here tuning, lazy people that won't take anytime to learn, expect it to tune itself. If I only had a dyno at the shop!! He's a bit nervous now lol, my arsenal keeps getting bigger! 95 gst, my new fav the 91 gvr4 and my next real beast in the makings my cherry 98 talon with only 60k and still smells new car fresh lol my boys haha

 

[GSTwithPSI]

vr4play, I appreciate your feedback. I see what you're saying, but that's just not the case here. I can say with 100% certainty the timing is correct. The thing with being a "1/2 tooth" off is, that's only how it looks to the human eye. Physically, you can't be a 1/2 tooth off, because there aren't half teeth on any of the cogs. The only way your timing could appear a half tooth off, is if external factors were changed (adjustable cam gears, head and block deck thickness, position of the tensioner, etc.). If you set the timing incorrectly, at minimum you are at least 1 WHOLE tooth off on one of the cogs any way you cut it. Now, because the cogs are different diameters, that may make them appear to be a half tooth off when looking at timing marks in various places, but in actuality, you can ONLY be a whole tooth off. There's no arguing that, because it's fact. And, in my experience, when you are a whole tooth off, it's pretty much impossible to miss. There's no possible way to get the timing marks even close if you are a full tooth off on any of the timing cogs...at least not that I've ever seen. I mention this not to bust your balls, but to make you understand from my perspective why I believe the timing on the car is spot on. Again, I do appreciate the feedback you've given.


Quoting coyotes:
Interesting information to know, vr4play. I know with confidence my timing was lined up more accurately than on Brett's motor (took pictures), but I figured the slight difference in how it lines up can be due to machined down cylinder heads, different thickness head gaskets, etc.


I believe you're right on the money, Thomas. My block was decked, and I also think my head may have been machined too thin for my current setup. I believe this is why I have a slight variation in my timing marks. Let me be clear, that I'm not blaming anyone but myself for not double checking my valve clearance. But, I do think this head is leading to some problems I'm now having with the car. The thin head, coupled with the decked block and aftermarket pistons have lead to some issues.

I'll start by giving an update from my last. After I verified my compression was good with the HKS 272s installed, I put the car all back together. I got everything all buttoned up yesterday. I started up the car and let it idle for a bit, just to see how it would behave. The car ran good with the HKS cams installed. I was even impressed with the idle quality given the size of the cams installed. I took the car out for a drive, and again, it ran good. I babied it around, and monitored my temps since I've been having some issues with the car running a bit on the warm side. Temps looked good, around 190-200 just crusing around.

After I was satisfied with how the car was running, I started to get into the throttle a bit more, doing some light 3rd gear pulls just to see how the car pulled. I'm at about 650 miles on the new motor, so I'm driving it a bit more aggressively at this point. I felt like the car was running great. After doing those few pulls, the temps are fluctuating between 190 and 210. Definitely a bit hotter than I would like, but it's around the norm from what I've been seeing the car run consistently at. I've also got the BCS locked out, so I'm seeing 9-10 psi max in any gear at any RPM.

The car was running great, and the logs looked good, so I decided to do a few more aggressive pulls. This time, I run 2nd and 3rd gear out to around 6k. At the end of 3rd, I pop the car out of gear and modulate the throttle to let the revs drop slow and controlled. After the revs have dropped, I cruise in 3rd for a bit until I can come to a stop to see how the car is idling. Each time it idled just fine. I did 3 pulls like this. The first 2 went great. The 3rd didn't go so well.

On the 3rd pull, something broke. The car lost pretty much all power, and the engine started to miss. It has that Subaru sound, kind of like when and injector is unplugged, but a bit worse. I pulled over, and surprisingly the car still idled. My first thought was an injector, but I verified the injectors plugs are good, and could also tell by how the car acted that wasn't the issue. I drove the car home just fine. The temps still stayed good and there wasn't any knocking or anything crazy. I'm almost positive I bent a valve, or 2, or 8. IDK. I think I got it warm enough to max out what little clearance I had between the pistons and valves, and got some contact. I also think the HKS cams probably pushed me past what little threshold I had with the stock cams installed. Again, nobody's fault but my own.

I'm wondering also, if the cylinder being too tight has anything to do with the car running on the warm side. Everything in the cooling system is new. New water pump, all new hoses hoses, brand new radiator, 50/50 coolant mix with water wetter, new radiator cap, new 180* t-stat. Literally an entirely new cooling system. I know Prove_it suggested I run a better radiator, and I'm cool with that. But, I feel like there's another issue at hand here which should be corrected. Plenty of guys are maintaining good temps with stock radiators, and I don't see why I shouldn't be able to as well.

The plan is to run a few tests (check my mechanical timing, compression test, etc.) and see where I'm at. Depending on what I find, I'll probably pull the head and replace it. I'm 99% sure I bent some valves, but we'll see. Thanks to everyone who commented in this thread. I appreciate the feedback.

 

[GVR4kauai]

Oh man bummers bro /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif keep us in the loop on your findings! Sure you didn't just blow a pipe or something, or does it sound that bad?