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Suspension (beating the dead horse)

CP

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
8,938
Location
West Simsbury, CT
Quote:
Unless you relocate the steering rack and/or run radically stiff springs to limit suspension travel, bump-steer's always going to compromise handling.



How much bump-steer do you think I get with my 2" of suspension travel?

I've actually gotten quite used to how the car rides (much better with the snow tires). The rear suspension still "whams" over bumps when it fully extends, but that's what a loud stereo is for.
 

s_firestone

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
1,610
Location
Park City, UT USA
Results for the front.

Uncut Evo springs, 1G AWD KYB struts. I've only got about 30 miles on them so they may settle a tad more. I'm still not sure why the drop was not the calculated .8" I even had someone check my math. Best I can figure is either the spring rate differs from specified or the the spring is not truly linear.

It is worth noting the unsprung free length of the OLD GVR4 springs removed from the car(service manual states 14.2"):
Front Driver: 13-5/8"
Front Pass: 13-1/2"

I replaced the following parts on both sides:
Lower A Arms (w/Poly bushings)
Ball Joints(Napa, sealed)
Sway bar end links(Moog)
Sway bar mount bushings(OEM)
Tie-rod ends
Strut Mounts(new GVR4 OEM)
Spring pads (I re-used the old pads added onto the bottom of the springs) 1/8" thick rubber


Before:

GVR4 OEM springs (154k miles)
Driver
Ground to fender: 25-3/4" @32psi (slow leak)
Fender gap: 2-1/2"

Passenger
Ground to fender: 25-3/4" @34psi
Fender gap: 2-1/2"

I pre-loaded the assembled A-arm using a jack before torquing the bolts.

After:

Initially let off jack stands
Ground to fender: 27"
Fender gap: 3-5/8"

After 5 miles:
Ground to fender: 26-1/2"
Fender gap: 3-1/8"

After 30 miles:

Driver
Ground to fender: 26-1/4"
Fender gap: 2-7/8"

Passenger
Ground to fender: 26-3/8"
Fender gap: 2-7/8"

I have not done the rear yet(tomorrow). I suspect the rear will shift some weight onto the front and may force the nose down a small amount. AGX's are currently set on 1(full soft). So far the ride is good, very controlled, tracks straight, and not too harsh. The steering is a bit twitch(could be rear-end or alignment or both). Once I replace the rear shocks and get an alignment it ought to be stellar.
 

iceman69510

Turn Right Racing
Staff member
Joined
Mar 5, 2001
Messages
10,991
Location
Michigan
So, no modifications to the front springs except the rubber pads? did you want the car higher than stock?
 

s_firestone

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
1,610
Location
Park City, UT USA
No, but I didn't want to drop it much either.

I did the math back a page or two in the thread for the drop offset using what variables I could and best guessing the drop. I made a couple assumptions from mentions in other posts that the Evo strut lower perch and/or hat was slightly higher or rather the mounting points are. Anyone?

I'm not entirely sure that this height is not more or less the original stock height with all new parts(rather than the sagged 154000 mile springs, rubber). I'm still searching for the stock height figures, they are not listed in the service manual that I can find(only front bumper height).

I will say that just like it is, its pretty close to stock. If stock was 2-1/2" then this is 3/8 difference(1/4" subtracting the 2nd pad). It's a pretty much a close match to replacing the OEM springs with a moderately higher rate spring.

I haven't ruled out cutting a 1/4 or 1/2 turn from the top of the springs. I also haven't ruled out notching the strut mounting bolt holes instead.

Whats going to be interesting is when I do the rear tomorrow. I do have two 1/2" spacers for the rear I picked up from a truck shop(they had a ton of stuff just lying in the corner from truck suspension upgrades). I may go back see whet I can get that fits our spring sizes.


I have racked up a lot of measurements and dimensions of the different components. KYB Struts, GVR4 and Evo mounts, pads, perches, etc. I'll be posting all that data back into this thread for future reference of those attempting to plan out a suspension using off the shelf components.
 

s_firestone

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
1,610
Location
Park City, UT USA
The rear springs are giving me some grief. Since the rear Evo springs are narrower than GVR4/TEL springs they aren't seating properly in the bottom of the AGX perch. They clunk as a result. I'm going to try to rotate them and see if it helps. I'm using the Evo upper mount and they seat fine up top.
 

belize1334

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Messages
3,317
Location
Bozeman, MT
Your drop may have been calculated assuming GVR4 original ride height, but old suspension sags, so you may have "lower than stock" which is still higher than what you had with the old stock springs. That happened when my friend put his Whiteline springs on a couple of years ago. It was supposed to drop about an inch iirc but instead it was completely unchanged. His stock suspension had sagged an inch already from years of use.
 

s_firestone

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
1,610
Location
Park City, UT USA
The problem I was having with the rear springs was due to bumpstop/mount problems and they have been solved. I mounted the Evo rear springs with a spring spacer approximately 3/4" that fit the springs properly on the bottom and the car looks to pretty much even front and back(26" fender height, will measure again this evening).

I have the AGX's set on 3 but I'm probably going to have to turn up to 4 because they are still a little too floaty. The rear Evo springs might be a bit stiff for the AGX. Worst case scenario I'll just put my OEM rears back on. The OEM springs really are well matched for our light rear end.

Once I've got this sorted out I'm going to look at cutting the front spring to drop the car back down and then remove the spacer from the rear.
 

s_firestone

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
1,610
Location
Park City, UT USA
UPDATE:

One part I did not anticipate a need for was the inclusion of washers above the lip on the rear AGX shocks. It is not part of the bumpstop. On the OEM shock the cup to which the dust boot is attached from above is metal and acts as a stop. The KYB boot attaches from below, has no integrated washer, and is too large to accommodate the metal cup. In its place a couple of stacked washers or the large extra top washers from the old shock assembly are needed. This keeps the shock body from popping through the mount bushings from below. I does not seem readily apparent when assembling the KYB shocks to the mount. I fought with this twice. This was the cause of the floaty feeling. The mount are as solid as a rock after adding washers.


Evo springs FRONT, Evo springs REAR, Evo mounts REAR:

Even mounted on AGX the front Evo spring really needs a turn cut off(this of course ups the rate). The rear will sit low anyway. I found the Evo springs to be firm and controlled, not harsh at all. I think they might be better matched with Koni's from what I've heard of their characteristics. The Evo springs are at the upper end of what should probably be put on a street car. I found that the roads here(pavement warping due to Yazoo clay) need a bit more give in the suspension than the Evo springs supply. This means on some bumps while the car is quite steady, you get thrown into the roof.

I did have a lower spacer on the rears with the Evo installed which served two purposes. One, it allowed the spring to perch properly since the Evo springs ride high and don't sit properly due to the smaller diameter than the stock Galant springs. Two, since the spacer sat atop the KYB perch they raised the height of the spring up to slightly higher than stock. The rear upper mount was OEM Evo which is significantly smaller than the stock Galant mount(bolt patterns are the same). The upper mount pad is also specific to the Evo mount.


Evo springs FRONT, Galant OEM springs REAR, Galant mounts REAR:

I ended changing out the rear springs back to the Galant springs(the spring oscillation is more suitable, the Evo shocks oscillate at almost 2 cycles per second). The front springs with 1/2 turn cut(I may cut another 1/2 since the first half is dead spring for the perch) are pretty close to the stock height and handle bumps well. Note: I had to rotate the spring approximately 90 degrees to be safe. I also had to swap to the OEM Galant mounts. This includes swapping to the upper spring pad that fits the larger Galant mount. I ordered all of this in advance from JNZ.



One characteristic of the AGX's I've heard mentioned but not experienced until now is that they change damping when cold. I can verify that this is true and somewhat annoying as we are going through temperature swings. Good news is that you can adjust it, bad news being that you have to adjust it. I have a theory that this might not be as prominent(or might be non-existent) with the stock Galant springs since the rate is lower.

I currently have the AGX's set on 1 front, 2 rear(smooth but loose, you have to fight a bit). It seems 2 front and 2 rear is a good compromise(this will likely be my normal configuration). I have tried 2 front and 3 rear which is above average unless you hit too much rough pavement(improves stability, less roll, less wander). I have also tried as high as 3 front and 4 rear(harsh but improves cornering significantly).

With the Evo rear springs I had to keep the AGX one notch higher minimum to control them(I tested every setting from 1 to 5). Anything above 5 rear and you get the uneasy feeling that the rear could throw the car out of control at high speeds on warped pavement.

All points at which I have so far tested were done at the beginning of a 15 mile commute with speeds from 30MPH to 90MPH and varying road conditions. Its interesting in that each setting shows the trade-offs in one aspect of the suspension or another(steering, stability, cornering, oscillation harmonics from differing spring rates front to rear).

I still have yet to get an alignment. And that is going to add some quirkiness to the suspension. The slightly elevated height factors in here too. It's very close to the stock height at this point though.

I may yet try changing the fronts back out to the stock Galant springs just for comparison sake. Another post is forthcoming with all dimensions and measurements I took before, during and after for both setups as well as pictures.
 
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