turbowop
Well-known member
In for ban.
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water and methanol
- Thread starter dsmtalontsi95
- Start date
Ban for what? Offering advice? PROVE ME WRONG.
You guys are unreal. Youre right, I dont know much about DSMs. But I am not new to motors or forced induction whatsoever. Its simple physics, a 4g63 is nothing special.
Yes I think tuning until you hear knock is stupid. You should start low and slowly monitor as going up. But if thats works for you, then by all means do it. Im not trying to get you all to dyno, im just saying if you want to take full advantages then thats the right way.
Now, you question my credibility, do any of you have some reason to prove me wrong that installing a W/I kit and touching nothing else will lose power? Please do so, I will prove you wrong again.
Now several of you have made some correct and smart replies, thats great. Thats what were here for, thats why people ask questions; because they dont know.
You guys are unreal. Youre right, I dont know much about DSMs. But I am not new to motors or forced induction whatsoever. Its simple physics, a 4g63 is nothing special.
Yes I think tuning until you hear knock is stupid. You should start low and slowly monitor as going up. But if thats works for you, then by all means do it. Im not trying to get you all to dyno, im just saying if you want to take full advantages then thats the right way.
Now, you question my credibility, do any of you have some reason to prove me wrong that installing a W/I kit and touching nothing else will lose power? Please do so, I will prove you wrong again.
Now several of you have made some correct and smart replies, thats great. Thats what were here for, thats why people ask questions; because they dont know.
Quote:
They didn't up the boost they just leaned it out and added some timing. They also feel that you will lose power without a tune
Thank you.
They didn't up the boost they just leaned it out and added some timing. They also feel that you will lose power without a tune
Thank you.
turbowop
Well-known member
Quote:
Now, you question my credibility
I can think of a few past posts/threads you've made as reason why many of us here question your credibility. Now you're an expert? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
"OMFG prove me wrong..." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Nobody cares.
Now, you question my credibility
I can think of a few past posts/threads you've made as reason why many of us here question your credibility. Now you're an expert? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
"OMFG prove me wrong..." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Nobody cares.
Someone just close this mess. It's like pulling teeth around here.
I will accept the fact that a stock car, at stock boost, with barely any mods running piggy rich already with a huge jet may lose power. However that is Wrong and it shouldn't take a dyno for someone to know that. I mean it's simple. It's like putting a Fp3575 Turbo on a stock DSM, it's modding ass backwards. Of course it's not going to work out well. Why would we argue that, it would be like me defending 5" IC piping on a 16g car.
What I am arguing is this, a car that actually runs a fair amount of boost and has some mods will ALWAYS benefit from a Wi kit with no other changes. Given the proper size jet is installed.
As for my Knock tuning comment, all you did was say what I said but in a sugar coated way. I said turn it up until it knocks, then turn it down. You say go slowly and yada yada yada. Same difference man.
I will accept the fact that a stock car, at stock boost, with barely any mods running piggy rich already with a huge jet may lose power. However that is Wrong and it shouldn't take a dyno for someone to know that. I mean it's simple. It's like putting a Fp3575 Turbo on a stock DSM, it's modding ass backwards. Of course it's not going to work out well. Why would we argue that, it would be like me defending 5" IC piping on a 16g car.
What I am arguing is this, a car that actually runs a fair amount of boost and has some mods will ALWAYS benefit from a Wi kit with no other changes. Given the proper size jet is installed.
As for my Knock tuning comment, all you did was say what I said but in a sugar coated way. I said turn it up until it knocks, then turn it down. You say go slowly and yada yada yada. Same difference man.
Right, Im not so much arguing with you. But even on a modded higher boost car you instantly drop HP until you pull fuel or raise boost. Thats all im saying. Of course most people know you should do that when you install, but I was not sure (and still not sure for that matter) that the POSTER knows this. Im sure he finds my info helpful. He clearly doesnt know too much about w/i, just read his first post. Im helping, and you guys are just arguing with me because you dont like me or dont want to beleive what I say.
I guess I could have worded it, "IMO you should dynotune it after you install it" instead of saying he NEEDs to dyno tune it. I just assumed he needed it based on his first post.
That make it better?
That make it better?
Quote:
Someone just close this mess. It's like pulling teeth around here.
I will accept the fact that a stock car, at stock boost, with barely any mods running piggy rich already with a huge jet may lose power. However that is Wrong and it shouldn't take a dyno for someone to know that. I mean it's simple. It's like putting a Fp3575 Turbo on a stock DSM, it's modding ass backwards. Of course it's not going to work out well. Why would we argue that, it would be like me defending 5" IC piping on a 16g car.
What I am arguing is this, a car that actually runs a fair amount of boost and has some mods will ALWAYS benefit from a Wi kit with no other changes. Given the proper size jet is installed.
As for my Knock tuning comment, all you did was say what I said but in a sugar coated way. I said turn it up until it knocks, then turn it down. You say go slowly and yada yada yada. Same difference man.
Did you read the link i posted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Someone just close this mess. It's like pulling teeth around here.
I will accept the fact that a stock car, at stock boost, with barely any mods running piggy rich already with a huge jet may lose power. However that is Wrong and it shouldn't take a dyno for someone to know that. I mean it's simple. It's like putting a Fp3575 Turbo on a stock DSM, it's modding ass backwards. Of course it's not going to work out well. Why would we argue that, it would be like me defending 5" IC piping on a 16g car.
What I am arguing is this, a car that actually runs a fair amount of boost and has some mods will ALWAYS benefit from a Wi kit with no other changes. Given the proper size jet is installed.
As for my Knock tuning comment, all you did was say what I said but in a sugar coated way. I said turn it up until it knocks, then turn it down. You say go slowly and yada yada yada. Same difference man.
Did you read the link i posted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
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Quote:
you WILL start making more power without even changing anything else.
No it wont.
Im not trying to be argumentative with you guys. We all know lower A/Fs is less power, when you start raising boost or pulling fuel it makes your A/F higher/leaner. So when you install a W/I kit, (depending on kit/size/etc.) it could drop lets say 1 whole point in A/f, with less knock.
Now if you leaned it out with a AFC, to the same as previous A/F, it would be a little more power becauase of the cleaner higher flowing chambers and less knock.
But installing W/I and touching nothing after will net you less power. Thats my point, sorry if it sounds like im arguing with you. He didnt say if he was raising boost after, and Im unsure if he has a wideband or not, so my post was simply helpful info.
Fuel will only account for ~7% increase/decrease in power between blowing out spark from being to lean and wetting plugs to the point they won't fire. By adjusting fuel with a VPC or AFC you are inadvertantly adjusting ignition timing by changing how the ECU reads load. Ignition timing has a HUGE effect on power.
Water injection is a patch. Nothing more, nothing less. It works, sometimes it works well.
Tuning by knock doesn't work. Once you change the internals of your engine it no longer resonate in the same frequency that the ECU was told to read a knock. Forged parts ring louder then non forged parts. Forged parts of differen't alloy's ring at different tones. Hence the reason knock sensors are not the "proper" way of tuning. BUT people are sucessfull (mostly) with tuning that way. I have had cars on the dyno that the knock sensor is going balistic and the car isn't knocking. I have had OTHER cars on the dyno knocking like CRAZY and the knock sensor ignores it. The ONLY proper way to measure knock is on a dyno compairing in steady state. But the last time I looked not everyone had a dyno dynamics, dynapack, Bosch, or water break engine dyno. Do what works for you, and if you need help enlist a certified professional.
Quote:
you WILL start making more power without even changing anything else.
No it wont.
Im not trying to be argumentative with you guys. We all know lower A/Fs is less power, when you start raising boost or pulling fuel it makes your A/F higher/leaner. So when you install a W/I kit, (depending on kit/size/etc.) it could drop lets say 1 whole point in A/f, with less knock.
Now if you leaned it out with a AFC, to the same as previous A/F, it would be a little more power becauase of the cleaner higher flowing chambers and less knock.
But installing W/I and touching nothing after will net you less power. Thats my point, sorry if it sounds like im arguing with you. He didnt say if he was raising boost after, and Im unsure if he has a wideband or not, so my post was simply helpful info.
Fuel will only account for ~7% increase/decrease in power between blowing out spark from being to lean and wetting plugs to the point they won't fire. By adjusting fuel with a VPC or AFC you are inadvertantly adjusting ignition timing by changing how the ECU reads load. Ignition timing has a HUGE effect on power.
Water injection is a patch. Nothing more, nothing less. It works, sometimes it works well.
Tuning by knock doesn't work. Once you change the internals of your engine it no longer resonate in the same frequency that the ECU was told to read a knock. Forged parts ring louder then non forged parts. Forged parts of differen't alloy's ring at different tones. Hence the reason knock sensors are not the "proper" way of tuning. BUT people are sucessfull (mostly) with tuning that way. I have had cars on the dyno that the knock sensor is going balistic and the car isn't knocking. I have had OTHER cars on the dyno knocking like CRAZY and the knock sensor ignores it. The ONLY proper way to measure knock is on a dyno compairing in steady state. But the last time I looked not everyone had a dyno dynamics, dynapack, Bosch, or water break engine dyno. Do what works for you, and if you need help enlist a certified professional.
Quote:
Did you read the link i posted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I hadn't but I just gave it a quick glance. While it does lean towards the "it needs tuned" argument, I still don't buy that. I still stand by my argument that a car that "needs" it will gain power. These low boosting cars that aren't making tons of power or running the compressor out of it's efficiency range just aren't prime candidates for WI, imho. Anyway nothing is getting accomplished here. I think we can all agree it will make more power than pump gas by itself, how it does it is up to the end user.
Did you read the link i posted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I hadn't but I just gave it a quick glance. While it does lean towards the "it needs tuned" argument, I still don't buy that. I still stand by my argument that a car that "needs" it will gain power. These low boosting cars that aren't making tons of power or running the compressor out of it's efficiency range just aren't prime candidates for WI, imho. Anyway nothing is getting accomplished here. I think we can all agree it will make more power than pump gas by itself, how it does it is up to the end user.
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well one of the best subaru tuners does feel you will lose power. And they did it on the dyno and lost power. If you read the link it says the a/f droped a whole point. So unless your car is runing lean, too much boost, heat soaked, or knocking WI will make you lose power. When you say "needs" if your refering to one of the cases above, no sh*t WI is goin help.
Did I mention you will lose power with WI without a tune? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Did I mention you will lose power with WI without a tune? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
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I think the only way you would gain power simply by installing it would be if you were knocking way too much and your a/fs were through the roof so much that you were pulling insane timing. Even then, im not sure if youd make more power, but it would definately atleast run better.
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Did I mention you will lose power with WI without a tune? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
You guys are taking it down to the most simplistic level, ok you are right. But I think you can also agree that after installing WI a person will be able to turn up the boost further and create more power? I think we've found a compromise we can agree on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
Did I mention you will lose power with WI without a tune? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
You guys are taking it down to the most simplistic level, ok you are right. But I think you can also agree that after installing WI a person will be able to turn up the boost further and create more power? I think we've found a compromise we can agree on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
yea its obvious you could gain power.....with some sort of tuning /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
i consider it "some sort of tuning" but i figured i would get hassled about that. Either way, if you just add WI and not do anything else you will lose power.
FYI: Just raising the boost might not be enough if your running too rich for the start.
FYI: Just raising the boost might not be enough if your running too rich for the start.
Hertz
Staff member
Too many variables, too general of arguements... I'm going to try and summarize in my opinion and then you guys can stop clashing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Here's the deal:
After any mod, you should carefully monitor the changes and tune/adjust accordingly.
Almost every modification could result in a loss of performance under untuned circumstances. Do you have to tune it on a dyno? No, you can probably find improvement using some seat time and a logger and common sense.
Of course someone who works at a shop with a dyno is going to push for those services, that's his job. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Here's the deal:
After any mod, you should carefully monitor the changes and tune/adjust accordingly.
Almost every modification could result in a loss of performance under untuned circumstances. Do you have to tune it on a dyno? No, you can probably find improvement using some seat time and a logger and common sense.
Of course someone who works at a shop with a dyno is going to push for those services, that's his job. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Quote:
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails.
With the exception of your hand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails.
With the exception of your hand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
