In for an update, your luck seems just as bad as mine, these cars sure are money pits. Good luck with it.
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(sigh) it's not supposed to work this way...
- Thread starter DR1665
- Start date
DR1665
Well-known member
Did some troubleshooting with a buddy tonight. Confirmed spark on all four cylinders, plug wire integrity and installation on all.four cylinders, re-checked compression, and free-spun the engine without plugs. Even pulled the valve cover to be sure we hadn't lost a rocker or something. It only makes this noise when it fires.
Quick video with my phone on YouTube.
Probably just dumb luck and spun a rod. It happens, but would appreciate feedback before I pull the engine and strip it down. Might be time to pick up another 2GNT or a Colt or something...
Quick video with my phone on YouTube.
Probably just dumb luck and spun a rod. It happens, but would appreciate feedback before I pull the engine and strip it down. Might be time to pick up another 2GNT or a Colt or something...
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grocery_getter
Well-known member
Open your valve cover. Something in the valve train is the problem. Might have a bad lifters or a roller rocker that is partially off. That is not a bottom end noise.
DR1665
Well-known member
Thanks for checking in on my thread, Andre. I appreciate it.
We pulled the cover and took a good hard look around. Nothing looked out of place. Spun the engine with the cover off and CAS disconnected to get a good look at things on the move. We even went as far as firing the engine with the cover off - THAR SHE BLOWS! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
If timing jumped and there was interference, we'd still get the noise in the absence of spark/compression, right? We compression tested it again and got 145-150PSI across all four cylinders. Lack of timing would impact overlap, meaning it would impact timing numbers, too; likewise if I'd bent/broke a valve. It's damn curious. Could it be a collapsed lifter? Would we even be able to spot that without disassembling the head?
The most damning thing about this situation is this: All I did to the engine was disconnect the CAS, pull the plugs, and do a warm compression test. That's it.
Appreciate the continued feedback. This weekend, I think I'm going to prepare to pull the engine and just rebuild it. I'd rather not, though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif
EDIT: Closed HTML
We pulled the cover and took a good hard look around. Nothing looked out of place. Spun the engine with the cover off and CAS disconnected to get a good look at things on the move. We even went as far as firing the engine with the cover off - THAR SHE BLOWS! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
If timing jumped and there was interference, we'd still get the noise in the absence of spark/compression, right? We compression tested it again and got 145-150PSI across all four cylinders. Lack of timing would impact overlap, meaning it would impact timing numbers, too; likewise if I'd bent/broke a valve. It's damn curious. Could it be a collapsed lifter? Would we even be able to spot that without disassembling the head?
The most damning thing about this situation is this: All I did to the engine was disconnect the CAS, pull the plugs, and do a warm compression test. That's it.
Appreciate the continued feedback. This weekend, I think I'm going to prepare to pull the engine and just rebuild it. I'd rather not, though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif
EDIT: Closed HTML
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grocery_getter
Well-known member
I would pull the rockers and the lifters with the head still in the car. That's very easy to do in the car. Let the valve extends all the way and compare the installed height of all 16 valve assemblies. Check all retainer, keys, valve spring, and spring seats. I know you have good compression, but this is an easy check. You can also check the timing belt marks before you pull the engine out of the car.
I've seen similar problem / noise when one of the retainer key jumped (should have 2 per valve assembly).
I've seen similar problem / noise when one of the retainer key jumped (should have 2 per valve assembly).
IncorpoRatedX
Well-known member
that engine does not need a rebuild, you're missing something simple...
Did you lose any bolts during the turbo swap? Also why did it sound like a massive air leak? I would be worried that a bolt fell into the timing cover. I have also left a socket on the power steering pump bolts and turned the motor over to encounter a great deal of racket.
AWDPower
Well-known member
Maybe it's my computer, but that sounds like an exhaust leak at the manifold/head to me. Maybe you left a washer on a stud before you put the manifold back on? If it was a bottom stud, it wouldn't be obvious and would sound like it's deeper in the engine. Exhaust leaks can sound metalic.
DR1665
Well-known member
Thanks for the continued support and feedback, gents. My day started at 0700 with a blue screen of death on the wife's computer and I've been on that mission all day. Managed to sneak 5 minutes with the Galant just to pop the VC off and give the lifters a push. All 16 felt immovable and looked like matched pairs on each cylinder/side.
I think I'll double check timing tomorrow, ziptie the belt, and loosen the cam retainers to remove the rockers without prying on my cams like some kind of animal. I'll keep an eye out for missing retainer locks, inspect the lifters, and maybe replace them with a set of rev 3s soaking on my bench. Tips for comparative measurement of valve stems? Might have a dial on a base at the shop, but if not, mini trammel bar?
Pressing on regardless,
Job the GearHead /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I think I'll double check timing tomorrow, ziptie the belt, and loosen the cam retainers to remove the rockers without prying on my cams like some kind of animal. I'll keep an eye out for missing retainer locks, inspect the lifters, and maybe replace them with a set of rev 3s soaking on my bench. Tips for comparative measurement of valve stems? Might have a dial on a base at the shop, but if not, mini trammel bar?
Pressing on regardless,
Job the GearHead /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
DR1665
Well-known member
Oh, and the exhaust mani is seated flush, no errant/missing bits there, and the timing belt cover was fully in place until wepulled the VC Thursday night. Thanks for the idea, Fu-man.
IncorpoRatedX
Well-known member
im willing to bet:
someting in the intake track
something loose in the intake
something left unplugged
something simple and stupid that you fucked up and will make you /facepalm
stop tearing the engine apart and find the problem!!
pull the intake system apart and check everything you took off when working on the turbo.
keep it simple, you're complicating things.
someting in the intake track
something loose in the intake
something left unplugged
something simple and stupid that you fucked up and will make you /facepalm
stop tearing the engine apart and find the problem!!
pull the intake system apart and check everything you took off when working on the turbo.
keep it simple, you're complicating things.
Sounds like your exhust manifold gasket is bad along with a boost leak. I would first put your boost leak tester on and willing to bet you a few of your favorite adult beverages that its a boost leak... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
DR1665
Well-known member
Pulled the cams, all the lifters were rock solid. All the valves had both retainer locks in place to boot.
I didn't have a dial indicator handy, so I could measure the relative height of the completely closed valves, so I decided to re-trace my steps on the turbo swap.
Wouldn't you know it, that one PITA exhaust mani stud behind the PS pump was missing. Such are the risks of starting the victory dance before the chickens are hatched in your basket. I was freaking out because it wouldn't stay running, but DERP! I blocked off the FIAV/ISC a while back - it NEVER stays running when cold.
Got another stud in place and double checked things are locked down nice and tight. It got dark and I got tired of dicking with it before I could get the motor mount and CAS setup. Hoping to have it running tonight.
I didn't have a dial indicator handy, so I could measure the relative height of the completely closed valves, so I decided to re-trace my steps on the turbo swap.
Wouldn't you know it, that one PITA exhaust mani stud behind the PS pump was missing. Such are the risks of starting the victory dance before the chickens are hatched in your basket. I was freaking out because it wouldn't stay running, but DERP! I blocked off the FIAV/ISC a while back - it NEVER stays running when cold.
Got another stud in place and double checked things are locked down nice and tight. It got dark and I got tired of dicking with it before I could get the motor mount and CAS setup. Hoping to have it running tonight.
DR1665
Well-known member
Buttoned up the motor mount, fired it up - SAME sh*t. Still sounds terrible. Kept my foot in it until it would stumble around on its own.
Here's the latest video.
With it lurching around, I took the stethoscope to it. The clicking seemed loudest on the intake side of the head, particularly on the fuel rail and intake manifold. It was much quieter when I sampled locations on the valve cover, but I chalk that up to the CV being insulated with a rubber gasket, likewise with the fuel injectors. Everything pretty much sounded the same, but the clicking was definitely stronger on the intake side.
f*** it. Buttoned up the VC, dropped the hood, fired up the logger, and took the car for a run around the block. CAS is not set but it's close enough to run. It didn't want to really rev (understandably), never made any boost (understandably), and generally sucked. Still, it didn't really sound any worse. Go figure.
If you've got TMO logger, you can check out the ~5min log here.
And, I noticed tonight, the tiny chip in the windshield - the less than six months old windshield - has spread nearly top-to-bottom. Giving serious thought to dropping a fresh motor into 464 and selling it. Seeing what Josh and Reed are up to lately, I think I want a simpler, old Mitsu.
Here's the latest video.
With it lurching around, I took the stethoscope to it. The clicking seemed loudest on the intake side of the head, particularly on the fuel rail and intake manifold. It was much quieter when I sampled locations on the valve cover, but I chalk that up to the CV being insulated with a rubber gasket, likewise with the fuel injectors. Everything pretty much sounded the same, but the clicking was definitely stronger on the intake side.
f*** it. Buttoned up the VC, dropped the hood, fired up the logger, and took the car for a run around the block. CAS is not set but it's close enough to run. It didn't want to really rev (understandably), never made any boost (understandably), and generally sucked. Still, it didn't really sound any worse. Go figure.
If you've got TMO logger, you can check out the ~5min log here.
And, I noticed tonight, the tiny chip in the windshield - the less than six months old windshield - has spread nearly top-to-bottom. Giving serious thought to dropping a fresh motor into 464 and selling it. Seeing what Josh and Reed are up to lately, I think I want a simpler, old Mitsu.
ade
Well-known member
was the intake plenum ever pulled off? if so check out the mounting surface's and or gasket, sounds like you might have a leak between your head and your intake plenum.
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DR1665
Well-known member
Thanks for the feedback, ade. Car is now partially disassembled and sold. The engine will be coming apart slowly over the summer to figure out - specifically - what went wrong.
I just watched the second vid and realized my brother's 1g is making the same noise we installed a new Tbelt. Difference is his is a gs n/a. I was wondering if maybe the hydraulic tensioner failed or is weak, and the pulley/arm is bouncing off and slapping the hydraulic piston. I never got to finish looking at it, so I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as well for ideas on where else to look.. Next time I check out my brother's car I'll let you know what I find as well.
