opinions on anything > 16g....

Wow, that header *LOOKS* like it flows alot! WTF???

Arguing that the header has "smooth bends" is just as dumb as arguing the cast manifold has a "straighter shot" at the turbo. How about you actually try the product, or look at people that have. You have some of the oldest resources of DSM/GVR4 info telling you that you are wasting your time, and yet you STILL try and reinvent the wheel. You know how many f*#knuts I have seem in my time that have tried to reinvent the wheel? Hell, the GVR4 guys take the cake, seems the Galants attract some REAL cukoos.

Aforementioned Crum. Scott Evans too.

So in retrospect, go and buy the tubular manifold so you can go get your smooth bending and high flowing on, while we go and kick ass with our low tech un-cool $150 cast manifolds.

If some people could just K.I.S.S.

 

I would have to say the AGP L1R is the best street turbo.

http://www.agpturbo.com/rseries.htm

maybe the L2R

 

[Gabor]

Look at this manifold. Nice.
http://www.dsmstuff.com/pictures/misc/blingblingmani.jpg

In reality it looks like sh*t and the runners are half the size of the stock runners.
Took a while, but I got my money back.
I didn't buy it for the bling factor. I had to had something with the t4 flange.
Lesson learned.

Gabor
692/1000

 

there have been many people hitting 11's with cast manifolds becuase they didnt have the option of getting this 'nice looking' tubular manifold. thats all i have to say.

 

[DSSA]

quote:Originally posted by a_santos:
I wonder why Formula 1 cars, when they used turbos, didn't use cast manifolds? The smoother the bends and the smoother the path the air has to travel through, the easier it will do so, yielding more horsepower. The ONLY reason mitsubishi uses cast manifolds is that they are cheap and easy to make, thats it. They don't flow more and they don't make more power than practically any tubular header, with some exeptions. I don't care if someone ran 9s with a cast manifold, it does not mean it is the most eficient method of extracting the hot gases from the engine. Why do we prefer mandrel bent pipes over press bent? Because they flow more due to their design. C'mon guys, if you can't see why a tubular header flows more than a cast manifold, I have nothing to say. It's clear cut, smoother path, less restiction. Header desing depends alot on combustion chamber design and cam profile, but I doubt anyone here will go out and have custom header made to match their engine, meanwhile we just use common sense. Why did Mitsubishi use manifolds instead of tubular headers? The same reason every manufacturer uses them...because when producing 1000s of them at a time, it's quicker and cheaper to produce them with a cast, and they tend to crack less than tubular headers. Why do formula one teams use tubular? Because it's cheaper to build a one-off tubular by far than paying $10-$15K on a cast for something they may only use once, then change the design.

The other aspect is weight.

Saying that a tubular manifold will almost always flow more than a cast manifold is a bunch of crap as well. Cast manifolds can be *EVERY* bit as free-flowing, and have even SMOOTHER transitions than tubular manifolds. It has nothing to do with them being cast or tubular, but of their design. I'd gladly offer a bet that the HKS manifold flows quite a bit better than most of the tubular 4G63 tubular headers out there.

Smooth transition paths? Doesn't get much smoother than that.

Equal length? Ditto.

Design makes the difference with flow, not composition.

 

[number3]

 

[a_santos]

Originally posted by DSSA:
[QB] Why do formula one teams use tubular? Because it's cheaper to build a one-off tubular by far than paying $10-$15K on a cast for something they may only use once, then change the design.

Formula 1 teams have upwards of 350 million dollar budgets. They get custom blocks cast. I can assure you that they would not even flintch at spending 10-15k more to make a cast manifold if it flowed more than a tubular header.

Gabor:

It is obvious by the quality of the welds and the design of the tubes and the collector on the "blingblingmany" that it is a inferior product. I would have send it back as well.

and...

Here is a post by Geoff from full race that I got from dsmtalk:

"This manifold is a medium-long runner equal length manifold with a defined
point inside the collector known as a merge collector. This collector
combined with the long runner is basically good for a rough estimate of 50
ft-lbs of torque over a standard turbo manifold.

The manifold itself is made of forged 8 gauge (.160") thick tubing. Most
headers are made from 16 or 18 guage tube (about 0.030") which is why they
crack so much. The tubing is 304 stainless steel and is certified to contain
3000 psi of highly corrosive/caustic gasses at ~2000 degrees. The flanges
are all 1/2" thick and can be ordered with either a t3 or a t4 turbine
flange. The welding is done by a certified aircraft exhaust welder using
308L rod (TIG of course). wastegate positioning is done custom on each order
according to customer preference. If youy want to see a picture showing the
differnce between the tubing we use and the tubing other headers are made
form let me know and ill get you a pic."

While this is not talking about the manifold that I originally posted, I believe the performance gains hold true.

Here is the link as well: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54520&highlight=tubular+header

 

[DSSA]

quote:Originally posted by a_santos:

Originally posted by DSSA:
[QB]
Formula 1 teams have upwards of 350 million dollar budgets. They get custom blocks cast. I can assure you that they would not even flintch at spending 10-15k more to make a cast manifold if it flowed more than a tubular header.

You're missing the point (actually, both, as the other is weight).

Why would a formula team ("350 million" or not) spend $15K on a manifold that may be a one-time design? It would be idiotic even if the weight factor wasn't involved. Plus, the time-frame involved with getting someone to build a cast to pour 1 manifold is usually rediculous as well.

Point is that this arguement has nothing to do with "which flows more". I *GUARANTEE* you that you can design a cast manifold that will flow as well as any tubular design. I'm waiting to hear how you assume that the opposite is true.

Are you saying that the same smoothness in bends can't be attained? Because I assure that it can.

Are you saying that they can't be cast equal-length? Because the HKS one is proof that it can be.

Are you saying that the runners can't have as much volume? There are manifolds out there that are *MUCH* bigger than the tubular manifolds for the 4G63 so we know this isn't true.

So, we have volume/length/smoothness of transistions. Where is casting a manifold inferior other than in weight savings?

 

[DSSA]

quote:Originally posted by a_santos:

Here is a post by Geoff from full race that I got from dsmtalk:

"This manifold is a medium-long runner equal length manifold with a defined
point inside the collector known as a merge collector. This collector
combined with the long runner is basically good for a rough estimate of 50
ft-lbs of torque over a standard turbo manifold.

Yes, I would say very "rough estimate". If eveyone could gain 50 ft/lbs. of torque from a $500 manifold it would be the biggest thing since the wheel for these cars. (Whew! Just realized that they're asking $950 for these things from the place you listed...I'll pass and buy another used HKS manifold 1st)

quote:
The manifold itself is made of forged 8 gauge (.160") thick tubing. Most
headers are made from 16 or 18 guage tube (about 0.030") which is why they
crack so much. The tubing is 304 stainless steel and is certified to contain
3000 psi of highly corrosive/caustic gasses at ~2000 degrees.
This is odd, because general consensus among manifold builders is to use T321 SS for its non-cracking properties over T304.

quote: [/qb]
The welding is done by a certified aircraft exhaust welder using
308L rod (TIG of course). [/QB]A lot of people also use 309L rod when TIG welding T304 as an initial layer before laying 308L due to 309L's better protection against cracking.

 

quote:Originally posted by a_santos:
Here is a post by Geoff from full race that I got from dsmtalk:

"This manifold is a medium-long runner equal length manifold with a defined
point inside the collector known as a merge collector. This collector
combined with the long runner is basically good for a rough estimate of 50
ft-lbs of torque over a standard turbo manifold.
First of all, NOTHING on DSMBALK proves anything.

Second, Geoff's statement is extremely subjective. 50ft/lb's torque increase over standard manifold? What's a "standard" manifold? Does that include ported manifolds? What turbo? What boost? Race gas? Where in the power range is the increase? Has it been tested on multiple cars with varying streetable setups?

And anyways, how can you even compare a $950 manifold to a < $200 stock ported piece? Seriously, get a grip, that thing is as much as a decent turbo. It's apples to oranges, as that Full-Race manifold only comes with T3 or T4 flanges. I see nothing that anyone on here can afford to use on a GVR4 street setup, with turbos using the standard Mitsu inlet flange.

 

[4G63_GSR]

i thought this thread was about turbos..??

 

quote:Originally posted by 4G63_GSR:
i thought this thread was about turbos..?? I'm pretty sure the 2nd post changed the entire direction of this thread.

 

Well, I will get it going back in the right direction. I guess everyone has an opinion on whats streetable or not, so heres mine. Personally, I drive around on a FP Red turbo(7cm housing, 10 deg clip on the 6H) everyday, and have for the past year(put 20k miles on it). I cant complain one bit. What about lag? Thats what the 1,2,3,4, and 5 on the gear shifter are for, to choose the different gears/engine rpms. What about doing a roll-on with a 16g car? He might jump for a split second, but I can guaruntee it will all be over with REAL quickly.

So in retrospect, dont be scared to go big. While my situation might be on one end of the spectrum, if you can go with a 20G or comparable turbo, and have all the mods to support it, by all means do.

In your case I would HIGHLY suggest a stage 3 .63 50 trim, its probably one of THE BEST streep/strip combos, can easily make 400hp on pump gas and 450 on race gas, cant beat it. It has decent response, also.

 

[DSSA]

quote:Originally posted by howard:

And anyways, how can you even compare a $950 manifold to a < $200 stock ported piece? [/QUOTE]

hehe...we were both reading DSMBalk for that price. The one on the site says:

4G63: $1,299.00

Whew.

BTW, there goes this post again.

 

[a_santos]

To each his own. I'm not trying to sell headers, if people are satisfied with their manifolds, fine. You can't teach old dogs new tricks

I have my opinion and other people have theirs.

By the way, I'm getting a fully ported 16g this weekend, for $350.

 

I see everyone talking about how great various turbos/headers/combo's are.. did anybody ask the guy what his intentions are with his car? is he a drag racer? Auto-Xer? road course guy? where does he live (what octane is his pump gas)??? what is his level of tuning capability and what is his proximity to a tuning shop if he can't tune himself?

All these need to be considered before you just say X turbo setup is better than Y turbo setup... each is good for something to someone... My 16g in California whoops most street cars around here. Yeah, I'll likely get a bigger turbo but that's because I'm doign a rebuild and will have higher compression and a better head to support it.

I built the car to be a sleeper, not to be a fire-breathing dragon. for that.. I'll build TT V8 old skool muscle car.

Just my $.02

Jason

 

[DSSA]

quote:Originally posted by a_santos:
To each his own. I'm not trying to sell headers, if people are satisfied with their manifolds, fine. You can't teach old dogs new tricks

I have my opinion and other people have theirs.
The manifold portion wasn't about "opinion" but facts. I've given proven facts and reasoning, if you have reason to disagree with them and supporting evidence, I'd be glad to hear them.

As far as the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" comment, I guess I could come back with "You can't teach someone experience".

 

[spoulson]

Ahh hell with it. I'd rather buy an EVO3 mani. Boom, $350+ saved that I can use to get a better turbo than a 16G. The cast manis work and they last. Will some fancy tubular header last as long? I don't know, and either do I know if one makes more power than the other. It's a question of practicality. Are you buying parts to fit the needs of a garage mechanic or an F1 engineer?

 

quote:Originally posted by gsxtasee:
I see everyone talking about how great

I built the car to be a sleeper, not to be a fire-breathing dragon.

Jason Anything wrong with building a fire-breathing sleeper?

 

quote:Originally posted by andy:
quote:Originally posted by gsxtasee:
I see everyone talking about how great

I built the car to be a sleeper, not to be a fire-breathing dragon.

Jason Anything wrong with building a fire-breathing sleeper?

nothing at all... as long as it is dedicated. if you drive it all the time, it is a pain to live in fear of the driveline. I launch my car like I don't care... 'cause I don't. If I destroy the tranny, I ride my gixxer 'till the GVR4 runs again... I am working on the new motor now that the dead ALT. belt somehow got into the timing area. The new car will eat transmissions and I still won't care. unless someone wants to give me a sponsorship on Trannies, I will stick with my 16g style turbo. it has not done me wrong yet and with higher compression and cams and etc. I don't expect to be losing to too many folks.

I like the idea of a fire breathing sleeper

Jason
1703/2000
12.84 clutch slipping and bald tires