Just got done rebuilding the 1336/2000 and can't get any fuel to the rail. I made sure that there is fuel in the tank by adding several gallons. I can't hear the pump but I think that is not unusual since it is a stocker. I checked, rechecked, and tripple checked all of the connecters and fuses under the hood but no luck. The car sat for 8+ months torn down and I discovered that the filler neck from the gas cap to the tank had cracked at the tank. Any & all help is greatly appreciated.
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curtis
Well-known member
Put a long screwdriver to the top of the fuel pump assembly and listen you'll be able to hear it that way. Then check backwards to find whats up. Did you do a pump rewire if so check the 30 amp relay you installed. Just because tis new doesn't mean its good.
MitchooO
Well-known member
i would check the simple things first... after i got done putting my motor back in when i did balance shafts and clutch i took the computer out for some reason and messed with my car for atleast a half hour before i realized it wasnt getting spark or fuel because the ecu was not pluged in.. ha. is anything different than when you pulled the motor out? maybe the CAS is bad/loose connection. or just make sure the fuel pump is getting power also... maybe the fuel pump froze up if it was sitting on empty and caught some condensation or something. never seen it happen but always thought about it. and i also had a problem with the mpi fuse being blown and the car would not start
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Have you tried putting 12 volts to the fuelpump test lead under the hood? What condition is your ECU in? A common symptom of acid damage in the ECU is that the fuelpump relay won't pull in.
Hey Jeff, Heiko here. I bought the chip from you with the 1050cc injectors several months ago. My email address is [email protected] I had the ECU socketed by my brother in-law who R&Ds motherboards for a living and was there when he did the socket. Everything looked good and the ECU seems to be working great, i.e. the car cranks over like a champ but I can't get fuel to the rail.
I have not had time to feed the pump 12V so I don't know if its bad or not. I checked all of the fuses and connectors but no luck so far. When I turn the key on I can hear stuff clicking on under the hood and all of the dash lights are working as they should as well as the ECU clicking on and off as it should. I ordered a new fuel pump but mostly because I need it for its performance and not just for getting the car started.
jepherz
Staff member
Just to clarify, the pump should not be running when you turn the key to "acc" or "on". Only while cranking or while the motor is running.
Hertz
Staff member
Operation of the CAS can usually be confirmed by looking for the tach moving while cranking.
solidviper89
Well-known member
Fuelpump doesnt kick in till ECU gets CAS signal, right?
3rdstrikedsm
Well-known member
Correct^
toybreaker
iconoclast
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
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If you have a spare cas, you can do a quicky test or two that will narrow things down quickly and easily.
Unplug the cas on the motor and plug in your spare.
Pull the spark plugs, place them back into the wires, and lay them on the valve cover with the plug casings touching the valve cover.
Turn the key to the on position, and spin the cas.
You should see the spark plugs firing. Be sure to eyeball all of them.
With the engine off and key on, when you spin the cas you can often hear the fuel moving in the rail, and you can definately hear the pump.
If that's the case, things are working as they should in the cas/ecu/fuel pump circuit, and it's time to look elsewhere.
It should be noted that you should go easy on spinning the cas without the engine running.
The injectors will fire every time you see the plugs fire. If you get carried away, you'll wash the cylinders. Used with discretion, this a quick, accurate way to see what's what, but if you play with this too much, there will be ramifications and reprecussions, nuff said. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
At this point if you have a spare injector set , you can unplug the injectors on the motor, plug in your spares. You'll feel them "click" in your hand as you spin the cas. Be sure to check them all.
The last "no run" after engine replacement I dealt with turned out to be a problem with the injector resistor pack. Checked good with a voltmeter/noid lite, but enough wire strands had broken on the tab at the end of the resistor that there wasn't enough current to fire an injector.
Cars, gotta love 'em! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Unplug the cas on the motor and plug in your spare.
Pull the spark plugs, place them back into the wires, and lay them on the valve cover with the plug casings touching the valve cover.
Turn the key to the on position, and spin the cas.
You should see the spark plugs firing. Be sure to eyeball all of them.
With the engine off and key on, when you spin the cas you can often hear the fuel moving in the rail, and you can definately hear the pump.
If that's the case, things are working as they should in the cas/ecu/fuel pump circuit, and it's time to look elsewhere.
It should be noted that you should go easy on spinning the cas without the engine running.
The injectors will fire every time you see the plugs fire. If you get carried away, you'll wash the cylinders. Used with discretion, this a quick, accurate way to see what's what, but if you play with this too much, there will be ramifications and reprecussions, nuff said. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
At this point if you have a spare injector set , you can unplug the injectors on the motor, plug in your spares. You'll feel them "click" in your hand as you spin the cas. Be sure to check them all.
The last "no run" after engine replacement I dealt with turned out to be a problem with the injector resistor pack. Checked good with a voltmeter/noid lite, but enough wire strands had broken on the tab at the end of the resistor that there wasn't enough current to fire an injector.
Cars, gotta love 'em! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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solidviper89
Well-known member
Now that is good info to know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks for the info so far guys I will give all of that a shot when my back frees up. I guess two 16 hour days working on 1336/2000 takes its toll. I had some serious help from
two friends (solidviper)&(DSMEric) and my dad so I cant imagine what I would be feeling like without their help. Thanks toy breaker I will try that first.
two friends (solidviper)&(DSMEric) and my dad so I cant imagine what I would be feeling like without their help. Thanks toy breaker I will try that first.
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Jeff,
There is a black wire near the ecu that bolts to the frame and is wired into the harness. Does have to be bolted down for some sort of ground i.e. CAS or fuel pump?
There is a black wire near the ecu that bolts to the frame and is wired into the harness. Does have to be bolted down for some sort of ground i.e. CAS or fuel pump?
Quoting jepherz:
Just to clarify, the pump should not be running when you turn the key to "acc" or "on". Only while cranking or while the motor is running.
Not to get to technical here, but when you turn the key to the "on" position, the fuel pump will run for a couple of seconds to prime (pressurize) the fuel lines. You should always be able to hear the fuel pump do this before start up. It sounds like a high pitch humming sound coming from your trunk. Without fold down rear seats it may be a bit less audible in a Galant. Get a buddy to listen for the humming while you turn the key to the "on" position (or vise versa) without cranking the motor over. You shouldn't even have to lift the carpet or spare to hear it. If you don't hear it humming/priming, then your pump is not working. If you have power to the pump, then your pump is dead.
-Jason
Just to clarify, the pump should not be running when you turn the key to "acc" or "on". Only while cranking or while the motor is running.
Not to get to technical here, but when you turn the key to the "on" position, the fuel pump will run for a couple of seconds to prime (pressurize) the fuel lines. You should always be able to hear the fuel pump do this before start up. It sounds like a high pitch humming sound coming from your trunk. Without fold down rear seats it may be a bit less audible in a Galant. Get a buddy to listen for the humming while you turn the key to the "on" position (or vise versa) without cranking the motor over. You shouldn't even have to lift the carpet or spare to hear it. If you don't hear it humming/priming, then your pump is not working. If you have power to the pump, then your pump is dead.
-Jason
Rausch
Well-known member
Quoting Kojack:
Jeff,
There is a black wire near the ecu that bolts to the frame and is wired into the harness. Does have to be bolted down for some sort of ground i.e. CAS or fuel pump?
A bunch of wires tied together down to one terminal? If so, those are the ECU/sensor grounds. Those definitely need to be grounded. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Jeff,
There is a black wire near the ecu that bolts to the frame and is wired into the harness. Does have to be bolted down for some sort of ground i.e. CAS or fuel pump?
A bunch of wires tied together down to one terminal? If so, those are the ECU/sensor grounds. Those definitely need to be grounded. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
toybreaker
iconoclast
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Messages
- 3,581
Quoting Kojack:
Jeff,
There is a black wire near the ecu that bolts to the frame and is wired into the harness. Does have to be bolted down for some sort of ground i.e. CAS or fuel pump?
I ain't Jeff, but I stayed at holiday inn last night (for reals /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif )
There are several black wires that terminate in ring terminals in the vicinity of the ecu.
One of them is for the ecu, and one of them is for the mfi relay.
There is also some computer/sensor related grounds out in the engine compartment up on the firewall, towards the middle.
Make sure those are all clean and connected.
Btw, as a quick reference, if there's no ground present for the ecu/mfi relay, you won't see the check engine lite and the boost gauge (stock chip) won't show anything either.
If you need additional help feel free to pm me for my phone number, and I'll walk you thru some easy tests.
Good luck, sounds like you guys will have it running in no time.
[edit] ooops, didn't see aaron already covered this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Jeff,
There is a black wire near the ecu that bolts to the frame and is wired into the harness. Does have to be bolted down for some sort of ground i.e. CAS or fuel pump?
I ain't Jeff, but I stayed at holiday inn last night (for reals /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif )
There are several black wires that terminate in ring terminals in the vicinity of the ecu.
One of them is for the ecu, and one of them is for the mfi relay.
There is also some computer/sensor related grounds out in the engine compartment up on the firewall, towards the middle.
Make sure those are all clean and connected.
Btw, as a quick reference, if there's no ground present for the ecu/mfi relay, you won't see the check engine lite and the boost gauge (stock chip) won't show anything either.
If you need additional help feel free to pm me for my phone number, and I'll walk you thru some easy tests.
Good luck, sounds like you guys will have it running in no time.
[edit] ooops, didn't see aaron already covered this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
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toybreaker
iconoclast
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Messages
- 3,581
Quoting whosnxt:
Quoting jepherz:
Just to clarify, the pump should not be running when you turn the key to "acc" or "on". Only while cranking or while the motor is running.
Not to get to technical here, but when you turn the key to the "on" position, the fuel pump will run for a couple of seconds to prime (pressurize) the fuel lines. You should always be able to hear the fuel pump do this before start up.
Actually, you're both right, (except for the part in red.)
Never say never, and never say always. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The whole idea behind the ecu only authorising the fuel pump when the engine is turning and there's a cas signal present is to prevent feeding post crash fuel fires.
The theory is simple;
no cas signal = engine isn't running = fuel pump should not be authorised
I've noticed an anomoly in the cas/ecu/fuel pump system where it primes the system when the key gets to the on positition... once...sometimes...
Not every car does it, and even the same car may or may not do it on each start cycle.
I asked a waaay smart guy about it a few years back and he said it had to do with the angle the cas was at. If it was positioned where it gave the okay to the ecu to charge the coils/fire the injectors, the ecu counted that as one rev coming from the motor, and so you would the pump for a sec or two. If it was positioned in a "null" area (not ready to fire anything) you'd get nada.
I've seen this topic debated before, and from my own personal experience, his explanation makes the most sense.
I've seen enough cars do it both ways to just write it off to a cas position anomoly.
If nothing happens when the cas spins, that's a whole different ballgame.
Note that all bets are off with an aftermarket chip.
(Many fpr's will bleed down when the engine is shut off, and the more wily chip cutters will code in a fuel pump prime command in the ecu coding to run the pump at key up. This helps to rebuild the fuel pressure the fpr bled off when the engine was shut down, making for easier starting.)
Quoting jepherz:
Just to clarify, the pump should not be running when you turn the key to "acc" or "on". Only while cranking or while the motor is running.
Not to get to technical here, but when you turn the key to the "on" position, the fuel pump will run for a couple of seconds to prime (pressurize) the fuel lines. You should always be able to hear the fuel pump do this before start up.
Actually, you're both right, (except for the part in red.)
Never say never, and never say always. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The whole idea behind the ecu only authorising the fuel pump when the engine is turning and there's a cas signal present is to prevent feeding post crash fuel fires.
The theory is simple;
no cas signal = engine isn't running = fuel pump should not be authorised
I've noticed an anomoly in the cas/ecu/fuel pump system where it primes the system when the key gets to the on positition... once...sometimes...
Not every car does it, and even the same car may or may not do it on each start cycle.
I asked a waaay smart guy about it a few years back and he said it had to do with the angle the cas was at. If it was positioned where it gave the okay to the ecu to charge the coils/fire the injectors, the ecu counted that as one rev coming from the motor, and so you would the pump for a sec or two. If it was positioned in a "null" area (not ready to fire anything) you'd get nada.
I've seen this topic debated before, and from my own personal experience, his explanation makes the most sense.
I've seen enough cars do it both ways to just write it off to a cas position anomoly.
If nothing happens when the cas spins, that's a whole different ballgame.
Note that all bets are off with an aftermarket chip.
(Many fpr's will bleed down when the engine is shut off, and the more wily chip cutters will code in a fuel pump prime command in the ecu coding to run the pump at key up. This helps to rebuild the fuel pressure the fpr bled off when the engine was shut down, making for easier starting.)
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Awesome stuff guys I can't tell you how stupid I feel for even asking the question about the wire near the ECU. I even wrote a freaking sticky post to myself on the ECU box to reconnect the damn thing because I figured it needed to be /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I will bolt that up and give it a whirl and report the finfings.
Also; I do not have a timing light and was wondering if setting the CAS dead center on the slot will be O.K. until I can set it via timing light?
Also; I do not have a timing light and was wondering if setting the CAS dead center on the slot will be O.K. until I can set it via timing light?
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toybreaker
iconoclast
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Messages
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Quote:
Also; I do not have a timing light and was wondering if setting the CAS dead center on the slot will be O.K. until I can set it via timing light?
That should get you running.
I would suggest you set it asap.
I would also suggest you don't run the engine anymore than you have to untill it is ready for the road.
You're going to want to break the piston rings in before the engine runs too long at idle. Prolonged idling will glaze the bores, and the engine won't seal up near as well as one that is lit up, leak checked and then road tested. The road test should include several mild accelerations from ~2500 rpm to seat the rings.
*In addition, extended idling *may* cause some internal tranny damage, as the internals aren't recieving any lubrication from the drip rails. (oil is pumped around the tranny by the motion of the gearsets)
Also; I do not have a timing light and was wondering if setting the CAS dead center on the slot will be O.K. until I can set it via timing light?
That should get you running.
I would suggest you set it asap.
I would also suggest you don't run the engine anymore than you have to untill it is ready for the road.
You're going to want to break the piston rings in before the engine runs too long at idle. Prolonged idling will glaze the bores, and the engine won't seal up near as well as one that is lit up, leak checked and then road tested. The road test should include several mild accelerations from ~2500 rpm to seat the rings.
*In addition, extended idling *may* cause some internal tranny damage, as the internals aren't recieving any lubrication from the drip rails. (oil is pumped around the tranny by the motion of the gearsets)
