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GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
Quoting 89Patches:
So what caused the timing to jump?
When the valves hit it jumped. What initially caused that I'm not entirely sure. I reviewed the log after it happened, and saw a ton of knock. That was the only event that occurred between the car running great and it dying /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
So what caused the timing to jump?
When the valves hit it jumped. What initially caused that I'm not entirely sure. I reviewed the log after it happened, and saw a ton of knock. That was the only event that occurred between the car running great and it dying /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
MellowVR4
Well-known member
DAMN, You just put this thing back together too! oh well. That's how we all learn and get better and what we do with our cars.
faqinshiet
Well-known member
Damn! Sorry Brett! I wish I had your skills!
Quoting GSTwithPSI:
Quoting 89Patches:
So what caused the timing to jump?
When the valves hit it jumped. What initially caused that I'm not entirely sure. I reviewed the log after it happened, and saw a ton of knock. That was the only event that occurred between the car running great and it dying /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Hmmm, doesn't seem likely unless you have some clearance issues or timing was not on. There should not be any chance of contact with proper clearances and timing. Had to jump first for valves to hit.
Quoting 89Patches:
So what caused the timing to jump?
When the valves hit it jumped. What initially caused that I'm not entirely sure. I reviewed the log after it happened, and saw a ton of knock. That was the only event that occurred between the car running great and it dying /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Hmmm, doesn't seem likely unless you have some clearance issues or timing was not on. There should not be any chance of contact with proper clearances and timing. Had to jump first for valves to hit.
marvinmadman
Well-known member
Belt slack combined with pre detonation? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
Quoting iceman69510:
Hmmm, doesn't seem likely unless you have some clearance issues or timing was not on. There should not be any chance of contact with proper clearances and timing. Had to jump first for valves to hit.
I agree, iceman. I can't wrap my head around what happened. I suppose PTV clearance could have been an issue. Admittedly, I didn't check it when I assembled the motor. In addition, my intake cam wound up being 4 degrees advanced after I degreed the cams, so whatever the PTV clearance was inevitably got reduced. Even if that was the case though, I don't see how the car can run perfectly one minute, and eat all 8 intake valves the next. If PTV clearance was the issue, I'd think it would have bent all 8 valves on first start.
Regarding the timing, I'm positive the car was perfectly in time, and the belt was tensioned properly. I can say that confidently because A) I've done more 4G63 timing belt jobs than I can count and B) I verified it was good when I degreed the camshafts. There were no failed timing components, and nothing to suggest something failed and caused the belt to lose tension. Hell, even after the valves got bent, the belt was still tensioned perfectly. And, if the belt lost tension I think the cams would have been out of phase as well as the crank. But, when I lined up the marks after the incident, the cams were still in time but the crank was out.
There's only one event that sticks out between the car running fine and the valves getting bent, which was a sh*t ton of knock. How that causes what happened, I have no idea. All I know is it was good before then, which leads me to believe the detonation either caused a problem, or exacerbated an existing one. Those are pretty much all the facts I know, which I fully admit, still don't add up to bent valves.
Taking what I've outline above into consideration, I'd appreciate your (or anyone's) input. I'd would just be nice to know what happened at this point. This forced me to go back to stock cams in lieu of being able to find a replacement HKS unit on short notice, and honestly, I like driving the car a million times better now. Much like I despise my welded diff because of how it kills driveability, I'm feeling much of the same way about the HKS 272s...
...I'm wondering if the natural willingness to sacrifice performance for driveability is the true sign of getting old /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I know for damn sure if this car was used for a DD and didn't sit in the garage 99% of the time, I'd get rid of both.
Hmmm, doesn't seem likely unless you have some clearance issues or timing was not on. There should not be any chance of contact with proper clearances and timing. Had to jump first for valves to hit.
I agree, iceman. I can't wrap my head around what happened. I suppose PTV clearance could have been an issue. Admittedly, I didn't check it when I assembled the motor. In addition, my intake cam wound up being 4 degrees advanced after I degreed the cams, so whatever the PTV clearance was inevitably got reduced. Even if that was the case though, I don't see how the car can run perfectly one minute, and eat all 8 intake valves the next. If PTV clearance was the issue, I'd think it would have bent all 8 valves on first start.
Regarding the timing, I'm positive the car was perfectly in time, and the belt was tensioned properly. I can say that confidently because A) I've done more 4G63 timing belt jobs than I can count and B) I verified it was good when I degreed the camshafts. There were no failed timing components, and nothing to suggest something failed and caused the belt to lose tension. Hell, even after the valves got bent, the belt was still tensioned perfectly. And, if the belt lost tension I think the cams would have been out of phase as well as the crank. But, when I lined up the marks after the incident, the cams were still in time but the crank was out.
There's only one event that sticks out between the car running fine and the valves getting bent, which was a sh*t ton of knock. How that causes what happened, I have no idea. All I know is it was good before then, which leads me to believe the detonation either caused a problem, or exacerbated an existing one. Those are pretty much all the facts I know, which I fully admit, still don't add up to bent valves.
Taking what I've outline above into consideration, I'd appreciate your (or anyone's) input. I'd would just be nice to know what happened at this point. This forced me to go back to stock cams in lieu of being able to find a replacement HKS unit on short notice, and honestly, I like driving the car a million times better now. Much like I despise my welded diff because of how it kills driveability, I'm feeling much of the same way about the HKS 272s...
...I'm wondering if the natural willingness to sacrifice performance for driveability is the true sign of getting old /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I know for damn sure if this car was used for a DD and didn't sit in the garage 99% of the time, I'd get rid of both.
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
I'd strongly disagree with them idling "great". Least, they didn't in any of my cars. Then again, I've always used them on MAF based setups, which I think is part of the issue. I've been told by a few guys idle with cams is much easier to sort out on SD. I've always struggled with getting the car to idle decent, not stall, etc, on the 272s. I didn't change a single thing with the tune after swapping from the 272s back to the stock cams, and the car suddenly idles absolutely flawless. It doesn't stall, and also doesn't have trouble when bogged down under an electrical load like when the fan kicks on. If someone has a log of 272s idling "great" on a MAF I'd love to see it and take a few notes.
I've feel like I've tried everything trying to get those cams to idle: I boost leak checked, dicked with the tune, adjusted the BISS, rebuilt the TB, etc, etc. My idle wasn't horrible, but I was never satisfied with the driveability, especially after driving 820 which is super tame and runs perfect. I'm convinced the 272s are one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" situations, but maybe it's just something I'm doing wrong.
The car actually feels really good on stock cams. On the 272s, I had zero low end power off boost compared to what the stock cams feel like. Not to mention, they should help spool the 8cm 68HTA, which has been getting a lot of negative feedback about being laggy. Strangely, I'm not noticing the choking up top like I expected. I'm guessing the large turbine housing is helping with that a bit, and it's much less pronounced than it probably would be on my old bastard 20G.
I've feel like I've tried everything trying to get those cams to idle: I boost leak checked, dicked with the tune, adjusted the BISS, rebuilt the TB, etc, etc. My idle wasn't horrible, but I was never satisfied with the driveability, especially after driving 820 which is super tame and runs perfect. I'm convinced the 272s are one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" situations, but maybe it's just something I'm doing wrong.
The car actually feels really good on stock cams. On the 272s, I had zero low end power off boost compared to what the stock cams feel like. Not to mention, they should help spool the 8cm 68HTA, which has been getting a lot of negative feedback about being laggy. Strangely, I'm not noticing the choking up top like I expected. I'm guessing the large turbine housing is helping with that a bit, and it's much less pronounced than it probably would be on my old bastard 20G.
89Patches
Well-known member
Did you break the crank sprocket in half? Had it happen twice now with different cars or the woodruff key broke, never seen that on a 4G though. Worth a look. Also willing to bet that "knock" in your logs is the pistons introducing themselves to the valves. If none of the timing sh*t is broken, it well sounds like ya fucked up on the timing side of things homeslice. Knock doesn't doesn't cause your t-belt to jump, normally it puts a window in ya block!
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
The crank sprocket looked fine when I installed the new timing belt this last time.
Far as the log showing the piston contact as knock, I guess that's possible. Also possible I fucked up the timing, but IDK. Does the initial video of the car idling sound like the timing is off to you? Not arguing, just asking.
I've also got a log of the one knock free pull I made before I trashed the head. Logged ~400hp on 18psi (wastegate pressure). Not saying that's legit hp, but not sure that'd be possible on a car with fucked timing, yanno? I can post the entire log if it maters:
Far as the log showing the piston contact as knock, I guess that's possible. Also possible I fucked up the timing, but IDK. Does the initial video of the car idling sound like the timing is off to you? Not arguing, just asking.
I've also got a log of the one knock free pull I made before I trashed the head. Logged ~400hp on 18psi (wastegate pressure). Not saying that's legit hp, but not sure that'd be possible on a car with fucked timing, yanno? I can post the entire log if it maters:
turbowop
Well-known member
Regarding idling with 272's, I've never had an issue with mine causing stalling or anything of the sort. That goes for both my old 2gMAF based setup, SD on MaftPro, and SD on ECMlink. Just the obvious lope that comes with them.
That sucks it happened, dude. I feel like you've had the motor out of that car like ten times now. I've never even had mine out once. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
That sucks it happened, dude. I feel like you've had the motor out of that car like ten times now. I've never even had mine out once. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
fuel
Well-known member
could the timing of the cam sprockets have changed - ie screws not tightened up enough?
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
Good to know about the cams, Mark. Your FIAV deleted? How's the car on cold starts? That's when I had the most issues, which I always attributed to the FIAV being blocked.
I didn't need to pull the motor this last time. There was nothing wrong with the one that was in it. But, 1546 needs a motor, so this was a kill two birds with one stone deal.
I didn't need to pull the motor this last time. There was nothing wrong with the one that was in it. But, 1546 needs a motor, so this was a kill two birds with one stone deal.
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
Quoting fuel:
could the timing of the cam sprockets have changed - ie screws not tightened up enough?
Funny, but that actually happened to me before. Caused me to pull a good motor out of 1837, in fact. That was one of the first things I checked, and the cam gears were good to go, right where I had set them.
could the timing of the cam sprockets have changed - ie screws not tightened up enough?
Funny, but that actually happened to me before. Caused me to pull a good motor out of 1837, in fact. That was one of the first things I checked, and the cam gears were good to go, right where I had set them.
turbowop
Well-known member
Yeah, my FIAV is blocked off. Car fires up fine when cold. The ISC does just enough idle-up to keep it running until it warms up.
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
Damn. I've had 272s in 3 separate cars, and they've never been what I'd call tame or idle good. Then again, I f***ing hate having a welded diff too, which I've heard others say they don't mind in their DD. Maybe it's just me?
What's truly mind blowing is you and G actually agree on something /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
And where's Donnie at? I think he pulls the motor out of his car like once a year for maintenance or some sh*t?
What's truly mind blowing is you and G actually agree on something /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
And where's Donnie at? I think he pulls the motor out of his car like once a year for maintenance or some sh*t?
My 272's are currently on sd, but have had a pair on a maf a long time ago on an old dsm and they idled great on both setups. Great drive-ability, no stalling and great on cold starts as well. My fiav is gone as well, but on the old dsm I still had it. I love them, the only thing I would trade them for is a pair of jun 280's which are just silly.
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
I was thinking about possibly grabbing a set of HKS 264s next.
