NateCrisman
Well-known member
what percentage of total fuel is your buddy spraying M5 to see a power gain over M1 ? Im real interested in this.
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Methanol kit recommendation
- Thread starter EfiniX
- Start date
EMX5636
Well-known member
Well that car is long gone now. But on M5 he was only spraying with a single 675 nozzle. I'm running 1000cc of M1 in comparison. The Evo picked up about 100whp with the meth, and I think 20 or 30 over M1/pump with an extra nozzle.
dyno video
dyno video
EMX5636
Well-known member
To clarify though, I run a 50/50 mix of water/M1. M5 shouldn't be mixed, and does some different things so each car is different. My setup has always been knock happy, so I found that the M1 combats that better. The M5 will help oxygenate the fuel, but has less cooling effect etc.
NateCrisman
Well-known member
Quoting EMX5636:
Well that car is long gone now. But on M5 he was only spraying with a single 675 nozzle. I'm running 1000cc of M1 in comparison. The Evo picked up about 100whp with the meth, and I think 20 or 30 over M1/pump with an extra nozzle.
dyno video
Im looking at those "ballpark" gains vs straight pump 93 vs 1000cc of 100% meth. Im just not sure if 1000cc will be "enough" octane to allow me to run this turbo at max effort for boost pressure & ignition timing. (say compared to straight E85 where I would likely be running it at 35-36psi and ramping timing from about 13* at 5000rpm to like 21-22* at 8500. Hearing your example "only" using a 675cc nozzle is pretty crazy...that seems like not that much spray. I kinda was anticipating 1000cc not being enough alky % and needing to go up to like 1500CC and cut back the pump gas even more....which...the more you do that, the more the catastrophe when/if the meth kit fails.
Anyway....I doubt I'll "need" the M5 nitro mix.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif The car went 12.3 with no real launch at 28psi and pathetic timing (map saying 5-9*, but knock sensor pulling it back to like 2-5* delivered).....Im hoping the 1000cc of meth gives it enough knock resistance to do 30+psi and 10* more timing....that would likely be way way more than enough power gain to see 11.50 ET which will get me booted for no roll-bar.
Well that car is long gone now. But on M5 he was only spraying with a single 675 nozzle. I'm running 1000cc of M1 in comparison. The Evo picked up about 100whp with the meth, and I think 20 or 30 over M1/pump with an extra nozzle.
dyno video
Im looking at those "ballpark" gains vs straight pump 93 vs 1000cc of 100% meth. Im just not sure if 1000cc will be "enough" octane to allow me to run this turbo at max effort for boost pressure & ignition timing. (say compared to straight E85 where I would likely be running it at 35-36psi and ramping timing from about 13* at 5000rpm to like 21-22* at 8500. Hearing your example "only" using a 675cc nozzle is pretty crazy...that seems like not that much spray. I kinda was anticipating 1000cc not being enough alky % and needing to go up to like 1500CC and cut back the pump gas even more....which...the more you do that, the more the catastrophe when/if the meth kit fails.
Anyway....I doubt I'll "need" the M5 nitro mix.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif The car went 12.3 with no real launch at 28psi and pathetic timing (map saying 5-9*, but knock sensor pulling it back to like 2-5* delivered).....Im hoping the 1000cc of meth gives it enough knock resistance to do 30+psi and 10* more timing....that would likely be way way more than enough power gain to see 11.50 ET which will get me booted for no roll-bar.
EMX5636
Well-known member
My car will only take about 29-30psi on straight pump with very mild timing (8-10*). But I've had it to about 36psi on the old BW turbo with the 1000cc meth on top with decent timing numbers (17-18* IIRC) and no knock. I'm out of injector though with 1150's. I think it will make more difference than you think.
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NateCrisman
Well-known member
I'm getting my ass kicked by this meth kit.
[*]Installed the pump, tank, nozzle yesterday....go to route the hose under the car: it's 6" too short to reach with it routed logically. (it would fit, only if stretched stupidly). trip to home depot for a roll of 1/4" nylon hose.
[*]Install the new hose between the pump in trunk and check valve under hood: zip tied to existing fuel/brake line route.
[*]Wired up a relay, absolute bare minimum..."always on" power directly to battery in trunk...DSMlink FPS output will ground the coil of the relay. Relay feeds power to the Pump, pump is grounded to battery.
[*] Setup DSMlink FPS output for 3500rpm, 1.5 loadfactor, 80% throttle, 5mph activation. Set AuxMaps to activate on FPS output. Copied my "pump gas" MaxOct maps and pasted to MinOct maps. Left fuel alone, added 2* of timing to the MinOctTiming map from 3500/1.5 up.
[*]Next: Dumped in a gallon of Denatured Alcohol from the paint section of Home Depot (stopgap till I can obtain some meth)....fitting at bottom of the tank is leaking hardcore!
[*]Touch the fitting: SNAP OFF. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif
[*]Trip #2 to home depot.....nothing even close to a correct replacement for the tank bulkhead w/ integrated 1/4" push lock. I got a few misc 1/4" and pipe thread items that I can makeshift fix it till I can get a proper bulkhead from Devil's Own. [/list]
Im going to give it another go today to hopefully get this going, make a few logs.
[*]Installed the pump, tank, nozzle yesterday....go to route the hose under the car: it's 6" too short to reach with it routed logically. (it would fit, only if stretched stupidly). trip to home depot for a roll of 1/4" nylon hose.
[*]Install the new hose between the pump in trunk and check valve under hood: zip tied to existing fuel/brake line route.
[*]Wired up a relay, absolute bare minimum..."always on" power directly to battery in trunk...DSMlink FPS output will ground the coil of the relay. Relay feeds power to the Pump, pump is grounded to battery.
[*] Setup DSMlink FPS output for 3500rpm, 1.5 loadfactor, 80% throttle, 5mph activation. Set AuxMaps to activate on FPS output. Copied my "pump gas" MaxOct maps and pasted to MinOct maps. Left fuel alone, added 2* of timing to the MinOctTiming map from 3500/1.5 up.
[*]Next: Dumped in a gallon of Denatured Alcohol from the paint section of Home Depot (stopgap till I can obtain some meth)....fitting at bottom of the tank is leaking hardcore!
[*]Touch the fitting: SNAP OFF. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif
[*]Trip #2 to home depot.....nothing even close to a correct replacement for the tank bulkhead w/ integrated 1/4" push lock. I got a few misc 1/4" and pipe thread items that I can makeshift fix it till I can get a proper bulkhead from Devil's Own. [/list]
Im going to give it another go today to hopefully get this going, make a few logs.
NateCrisman
Well-known member
well...I got the system spraying....first few tests were good, until ...got a misfire. Now I can't get the misfire to go away, even with the meth turned off and the boost down to 21psi. WTF,. guess another trip out to buy fresh plugs (pulled them twice, they look fine, reggae to .020")
First test was with 20psi, street timing map +2* and no fuel changes (11.0 AFR target on both DA fuel maps): pig rich..WB won't read richer than 10:0 apparently on the log. anyway..it was flatlined...and gave a little stumble misfire.
Secont test: boost to about 24psi...Set the secondary fuel map to 12:0 target...now it ran cleaner, but the wideband still showing low 10's.
Third test: boost to 30psi. secondary map set to about 12.3 target....ran clean till second pull got a misfire. (I had boost control set kinda f'd up...forgot to disable correction, and left the boost targets way low at 20...so it was spike to 30, then error correct pulls it back down).
Fourth test: disabled error correct on the boost control. set secondary map to target 12.5. now it misfires soon as boost comes up.....
grrrr
First test was with 20psi, street timing map +2* and no fuel changes (11.0 AFR target on both DA fuel maps): pig rich..WB won't read richer than 10:0 apparently on the log. anyway..it was flatlined...and gave a little stumble misfire.
Secont test: boost to about 24psi...Set the secondary fuel map to 12:0 target...now it ran cleaner, but the wideband still showing low 10's.
Third test: boost to 30psi. secondary map set to about 12.3 target....ran clean till second pull got a misfire. (I had boost control set kinda f'd up...forgot to disable correction, and left the boost targets way low at 20...so it was spike to 30, then error correct pulls it back down).
Fourth test: disabled error correct on the boost control. set secondary map to target 12.5. now it misfires soon as boost comes up.....
grrrr
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
Does it feel like an ignition misfire or what?
What's your current ignition setup, what plugs, and what are they gaped at?
What's your current ignition setup, what plugs, and what are they gaped at?
NateCrisman
Well-known member
Stock ignition coil/module, NGK wires, BR8ES now gapped at .018". i I didn't have any misfire issues prior to the alky, even running as high as 28psi at the track few weeks ago. plugs were new that day and went in at .022" I got a few clean pulls in with the boost turned down to 23psi and the alky on, and am making progress.
I moved the FPS trigger up to loadfactor 2.0 (about 15psi) up from 1.5 (about 9psi) and that seems to have helped/cured the misfire. I bet I was flooding it and wetting the plugs with the meth coming in too early. Link says it's making the same 400hp estimate in second gear as it made at the track with 28psi and the timing all pulled back from knock.
NateCrisman
Well-known member
Tune is getting there. fixed the misfire by moving the activation point up to 15psi and leaning it out. Raising timing another couple degrees (Im like 6-7* more than last track day on straight pump). Got boost up to 26psi this morning. Very little/random knock. AFR around mid 11's overall. DSMlink now showing high 400's for power in second gear, and mid 400's for 3rd gear.....HUGE increase vs straight pump. Will see at the track on friday, but Im calling this a flat out success so far. The car SQUATS HARD now and torque steer becoming an issue!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
EMX5636
Well-known member
Glad to hear you got it straightened out Nate. I had similar issues with meth coming in too soon. I have my activation setpoint through DSMLink to come on around 18psi. The alcohol isn't a bad thing to run. On my old 1G I stayed with 50/50 water/alky and had very good results, even with the archaic tuning available back then.
mitsuturbo
Well-known member
Quoting NateCrisman:
DSMlink now showing high 400's for power in second gear, and mid 400's for 3rd gear.....HUGE increase vs straight pump. Will see at the track on friday, but Im calling this a flat out success so far. The car SQUATS HARD now and torque steer becoming an issue!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
Not sure if you already know this, but just FYI, if you set the HP drivetrain loss to ZERO and play with the smoothing settings you can get results much closer to actual WHP. The drivetrain loss default is like 20% IIRC.
DSMlink now showing high 400's for power in second gear, and mid 400's for 3rd gear.....HUGE increase vs straight pump. Will see at the track on friday, but Im calling this a flat out success so far. The car SQUATS HARD now and torque steer becoming an issue!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
Not sure if you already know this, but just FYI, if you set the HP drivetrain loss to ZERO and play with the smoothing settings you can get results much closer to actual WHP. The drivetrain loss default is like 20% IIRC.
NateCrisman
Well-known member
Quoting mitsuturbo:
Not sure if you already know this, but just FYI, if you set the HP drivetrain loss to ZERO and play with the smoothing settings you can get results much closer to actual WHP. The drivetrain loss default is like 20% IIRC.
Yeah, Iv been kinda judging my results/mods against the DSMlink HP calculator for quite a few years on all the cars Iv run it on...and regardless of the actual absolute #, (just like dynojet #'s), it's all about the comparison of changes. in back to back logs. Im far less interested in that it says 400 or 500 or 300.....than I am that it picked up consistent 15-20% power with the meth vs the best power I was able to see on straight pump 93.
The settings are spot on for RPM/MPH for each gear. Im estimating 3400b total weight. The drivetrain loss still set at 20%. I run the two smoothing settings at 8 and 6 respectively (I think defaults are 4/3).
Im going to the dragstrip tonight to Test & Tune...the ET/MPH will show the results for sure:
The car went 12.3@112 on it's best run last time (pump gas only). 27psi boost. Very low timing (curve like 2* to 7*), AFR in the mid 10's. Knock pretty bad in 3-4 gears. Link shows 400hp peak in second gear and 350-360's in 3rd gear due to less timing/knock.
Now Im seeing it hit 495-498 repeatable in second gear. and 485 in third gear. 30psi, no knock, timing 12-17* average, mid 11 AFR.
Im very confident the ET/MPH will be quite a bit better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
One of these years/months, I need to take the car out to Vinny Ten's shop in long Island w/ GizmoVR4 and run this car on the dynojet and get a comparison of "real dyno" vs DSMlink estimate.
Overall, I think the Link HP estimate has been very reliable/indicative of actual reality at the dragstrip. When it shows a power gain...the car goes faster at the track. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
Not sure if you already know this, but just FYI, if you set the HP drivetrain loss to ZERO and play with the smoothing settings you can get results much closer to actual WHP. The drivetrain loss default is like 20% IIRC.
Yeah, Iv been kinda judging my results/mods against the DSMlink HP calculator for quite a few years on all the cars Iv run it on...and regardless of the actual absolute #, (just like dynojet #'s), it's all about the comparison of changes. in back to back logs. Im far less interested in that it says 400 or 500 or 300.....than I am that it picked up consistent 15-20% power with the meth vs the best power I was able to see on straight pump 93.
The settings are spot on for RPM/MPH for each gear. Im estimating 3400b total weight. The drivetrain loss still set at 20%. I run the two smoothing settings at 8 and 6 respectively (I think defaults are 4/3).
Im going to the dragstrip tonight to Test & Tune...the ET/MPH will show the results for sure:
The car went 12.3@112 on it's best run last time (pump gas only). 27psi boost. Very low timing (curve like 2* to 7*), AFR in the mid 10's. Knock pretty bad in 3-4 gears. Link shows 400hp peak in second gear and 350-360's in 3rd gear due to less timing/knock.
Now Im seeing it hit 495-498 repeatable in second gear. and 485 in third gear. 30psi, no knock, timing 12-17* average, mid 11 AFR.
Im very confident the ET/MPH will be quite a bit better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif
One of these years/months, I need to take the car out to Vinny Ten's shop in long Island w/ GizmoVR4 and run this car on the dynojet and get a comparison of "real dyno" vs DSMlink estimate.
Overall, I think the Link HP estimate has been very reliable/indicative of actual reality at the dragstrip. When it shows a power gain...the car goes faster at the track. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
Last edited:
NateCrisman
Well-known member
Went to track yesterday....on the M10 nozzle with 100% Denatured Alcohol in the injection kit and 93 octane in the tank: I picked up 13mph and nearly a full second of ET. So yeah, this was a 100+hp mod. well worth doing!
EfiniX
Well-known member
Awesome! I'm wrapping up a few things, first, then I'll get into the meth kit. I figured I was well overdue for a proper FPR, and Evan is doing some testing on a ported cyclone for me. once that's all squared, I'll get my body control solenoid in, tune, then meth.
thanks for the great discussion!
thanks for the great discussion!
