^You'll have more than 15 minutes in between runs. I had plenty of time in between my 3. Closer to an hour almost with the hood up and ice on the core.
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belize1334
Well-known member
Remember I live in Montana. I'll be lucky if I'm not the only person there in SP (let alone DSP). It's basically all PAX around here with maybe 30 people at an event TOTAL. I'm not sure how many runs they do but there are few enough people that they actually wait for every person to finish before they start the next car.
^Yeah I guess Montana summers dont get too extreme. In Atlanta, big blacktop with maybe 60 people running. Working the cones in between runs, its an all day thing. 95 degree all day thing.
belize1334
Well-known member
Yeah, PNW is the same. I miss it. Oh, well. Hopefully this new setup will let me get back out there more often and break fewer parts. Ultimately that's why I really decided to go DSP. It's cheaper to build competitively and less likely to break. Plus, I can feel as though I'm pushing the limits within a given rule-set instead of competing with my check-book.
belize1334
Well-known member
New thought. Terry just posted his impressions of the Curtis's subframe braces.
click
I wonder if they would be legal considering the following SP ruleset:
Quote:
E. Longitudinal (fore-aft) subframe connectors (SFCs) are permitted
with the following restrictions:
1. They must only connect previously unconnected boxed frame rails
on unibody vehicles.
2. Each SFC must attach at no more than three points on the uni-
body (e.g. front, rear, and one point in between such as a seat
mount brace or rocker box brace).
3. SFCs must be bolted or welded, but welding must be to the OE
subframe stampings, not to the floor pan in between.
4. No cutting of OE subframes or floorpan stampings is permitted.
Drilling is permitted for mounting bolts only.
5. No cross-car/lateral/triangulated connections directly between the
driver’s side and passenger’s side SFCs are permitted. Connec-
tions to OE components such as tunnel braces or closure panels
via bolts are allowed and count as the third point of attachment.
No alteration to the OE components is permitted.
6. SFCs may not be used to attach other components (including but
not limited to torque arm front mounts or driveshaft loops) and
may serve no other purpose.
click
I wonder if they would be legal considering the following SP ruleset:
Quote:
E. Longitudinal (fore-aft) subframe connectors (SFCs) are permitted
with the following restrictions:
1. They must only connect previously unconnected boxed frame rails
on unibody vehicles.
2. Each SFC must attach at no more than three points on the uni-
body (e.g. front, rear, and one point in between such as a seat
mount brace or rocker box brace).
3. SFCs must be bolted or welded, but welding must be to the OE
subframe stampings, not to the floor pan in between.
4. No cutting of OE subframes or floorpan stampings is permitted.
Drilling is permitted for mounting bolts only.
5. No cross-car/lateral/triangulated connections directly between the
driver’s side and passenger’s side SFCs are permitted. Connec-
tions to OE components such as tunnel braces or closure panels
via bolts are allowed and count as the third point of attachment.
No alteration to the OE components is permitted.
6. SFCs may not be used to attach other components (including but
not limited to torque arm front mounts or driveshaft loops) and
may serve no other purpose.
Last edited:
Quoting belize1334:
^^ I was on that same train of thought so I started searching around the sccaforums. The consensus is that the stud vs. bolt thing is no big deal since they accomplish the same task. But ARP is specifically an after-market item intended to significantly increase clamping force. So, in any application where clamping force could be considered a performance gain (i.e. turning up the boost) it's against the rules. On the other hand, if you had an n/a 4g63 nobody would care because the OE headstuds are already overkill so ARP are just more overkill but you'd never "benefit" from the difference. Topline, on the other hand, would be ok all around since it's designed to be OE replacement.
Other useful tidbits. You can swap to non-abs stuff if you call it a cross-swap between the G-VR4 and the G-GSX. Likewise you can get rid of 4ws via the same ruling. 4-bolt is ok since it uses the same housing as the G-GSX 3-bolt and internals are unrestricted (as are axles for accommodating them).
The 14b and the long-block MUST REMAIN STOCK. But, all manifolds, o2 housings, throttle-bodies, blow-off-valves, intake pipes, etc are all free game. You can even go speed density if you want.
Quoting belize1334:
Well I already sold all of the ARP stuff. Actually heading to the P.O. to ship the last of it now. It's no huge loss...I don't plan on rebuilding all that soon and I really don't think that the stock head-bolts are that big of a problem. I ran 20psi on my 16g with them and they held. I imagine they'll do the same for 20psi on a 14b.
You're right that it's a grey area but I decided to read it on the conservative side. My take is this... if I need them to run the boost I want then they're a performance gain and illegal. On the other hand, if I don't need them...then I don't need them.
I’m getting pretty much the same feedback all the places I research. That is, ARP bolts/studs/anything are not legal. It’s a shame since it really is a realability mod, but oh well. Like you said, the 14b is only going to make so much boost (20ish) and the 4G63t will handle that with all stock parts (assuming everything is healthy and in good running order). The ARPs would be for piece-of-mind and/or longevity, and SCCA should really re-think its rules when it doesn’t allow racers to build those factors into their cars.
If I build the car I intend to do the full ABS and 4WS (and Cruise Control for that matter) deletes on the car. I’m actually tempted to try and find a ’89 base Galant shell to start with, and use my drivetrain (saving my very clean, unmolested, one-owner before me, always CA shell for “restoration†someday).
I guess I’ll have to answer the question though, what can a stock 14b and 4G63t on E85 produce? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Quoting kartorium:
You might also look into running the fwd spindles on the front. Not sure if that would be legal or not.
It's been a long time since I've raced or been active, I've kinda fallin out of it the past two years, but I remember second gear needing to be a bit shorter then I could just rev a bit higher to compensate. This would create a friendlier power curve, unfortunately it sounds like you can't do that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I remember often wanting to shift to first, but it was too slow, so I'd deal with bog in second. Anything to shift the power a bit lower, but not hurt top end too much is good. I remember constantly running second gear out over 7k, but also needing the dig below 3k. Shifting to first (unless on a very tight pivot cone) would create wheel spin, and cost too much valuable time.
Tuning things to rotate with control under breaking/lift worked well for my driving style and the car.
I had no problems with the galant's steering, and with a small nice wheel it responded well.
I now run 255 azenis on an 8.5" wheel and have them tucked easily into the stock fenders. The overall grip is insane, and actually is a bit sketchy on the streets with tracking and the change of snap characteristics. With the right rate springs and a small over-flair you can easily run 275's but the overall diameter and weight starts getting a bit out of control, especially without gobs of hp/tq. I think I remember 285's being a better option cause you could actually reduce the OD by running them? Can't remember though. You should talk to MJ about running tires like this, he could fill you in. He might also have experience with wheel bearing and general hub wear/stress with this setup.
I seem to remember removing items from the front seats back being legal, but that might have been SM only? I'd look into getting carbon hood and trunks if possible and delete the rear spoiler. I remember always being pretty much the heaviest car in class, so any thing you can do to reduce, do it! Even little stuff like switching to non-power antenna.
I don't think modifying the upper strut holes is illegal because you aren't changing geometry. Anything to increase caster and camber is obviously a plus.
Look into running some WI if rules allow. Methanol injection was illegal, but I think just water is fine and can be beneficial with the high boost on the 14b.
Can you run aftermarket proportioning valves in DSP?
Also, good you already have a nice front LSD, that made a big difference on my car.
Maybe I'll get my car back into shape and run this year, might be time for a comeback /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What’s the advantage of the FWD spindles?
The gearing will be interesting. Does anybody have a good MPH calculator for the various gears in a GVR4? Most of the courses I typically run I think shifting to 1st would be a waste of time between the time lost shifting and the tire spin. I do worry about running out of 2nd gear and having to use 3rd too much (again: time lost shifting).
I’ll absolutely be looking for as much back-bar as I can find, and otherwise tuning the car to rotate on lift/brakes. The Z06 turns in so cleanly and is so balanced I’ve gotten spoiled. My Z/28 (’99 LS1 car) that I had before the Z06 did not rotate so I had to set it up to trail-brake for rotation. It worked, and the car was very quick at the AutoX for being a land-yacht. It just takes some specific tuning, and a different driving style (that I hope I can remember /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).
That’s interesting you’re getting that much tire in your GVR4. I’m going to put as much negative camber in the car as I can get (I’d like to see -3* up front and -2* rear but I don’t know if it will be able to get there). The more minimal the flares I have to do (and the less cutting under them) the happier I’d be. That’s another reason I’m considering a base shell to start: I don’t want to cut up this clean GVR4.
Water injection is legal, but w/ E85 I really doubt I’d need it (104 Octane + the cooling effect).
The rules read that you cannot change complete hoods. I think you could probably delete the spoiler under the "same line" rule since non-VR4 Galants did not have the spoiler. I think you could delete the power-antennae on the same basis.
The rules read that you must use the stock "mounting points" for suspension. It is not about geometry as you stated. I believe elongating the mounting holes equates to changing the mounting locations and would NOT be legal.
Brakes are entirely open, including prop-valve.
Quoting belize1334:
For transmissions there are no allowed modifications except that differentials are unrestricted. For my money though any transmission which adds no per-run performance gain is gonna be admissible. That means, I'm ok with DSM transmissions since the shorter 1st gear is less likely to break but actually a detriment up until the breaking point. I'm also ok with things like improved forks and shot-peening and all that since it only makes the transmission stronger and last longer but it won't make the car faster per-se. Also, 4-spider differentials are explicitly legal as differentials in general are open so long as they live in the same "housing" as the original. Double cone gears are out though since they improve shift-feel and could possibly improve your time.
I don't know how you get tires that big to fit. I've got 225/50/16 right now and they barely clear the fender lip and already they rub the inside splash-shield when I turn.
Slotting is the top is allowed as are camber bolts and/or slotting the strut. But you CAN't enlarge the upper strut hole. Since my teins already max out the hole there's no point slotting. But w/ only -2* camber I think I'll put some camber bolts back in to bump it up to -3*. Maybe run -2* in the back.
As for the 16g/14b difference... 16g is illegal... end of story. I don't mind bending the rules when it doesn't give an advantage but even a s16g will make 20% more power then a 14b and that's cheating. That's why my s16g will be up for sale next month.
Another hot tip is gonna be to run the power-steering pump from a n/t 4g63. Since all galants are listed on the same line, any galant from any part may be swapped in (though turbo/engine matings have to be maintained). The DSM's and Galants w/ 2.0 DOHC 4g63 both had the same power-steering pump which is rumored to have a higher-rpm cutout and thus avoid the loss of steering above 6500rpm. So, unlike DSMs where turbo and n/t are in a different class, with galants you can drop that n/a ps pump in there and eliminate a major defect.
It’s funny how differently the rules can be read! Everybody local to me, and I agree that gears cannot be changed. The DSM 1st gear would be advantageous because it’d be more useful in slow turns (it’s pretty clear the GVR4 1st would be useless once on-course, but the DSM might not be). On top of that it’s very well agreed that you can launch harder on the DSM 1st gear, which would be very helpful, especially at a Pro Solo w/ the “drag race†starts.
I do agree 4-spiders, welded, or spools for the center diff would be legal since diffs are totally open.
The rules read that you must use the stock mounting locations and I believe you cannot modify those locations (i.e. slotting). More grey-area stuff to look into though.
Agreed, 14b it is.
Very interesting about the PS pump, I guess that’s another thing to add to my “list†and perhaps another benefit of starting w/ a base shell.
-TJ
^^ I was on that same train of thought so I started searching around the sccaforums. The consensus is that the stud vs. bolt thing is no big deal since they accomplish the same task. But ARP is specifically an after-market item intended to significantly increase clamping force. So, in any application where clamping force could be considered a performance gain (i.e. turning up the boost) it's against the rules. On the other hand, if you had an n/a 4g63 nobody would care because the OE headstuds are already overkill so ARP are just more overkill but you'd never "benefit" from the difference. Topline, on the other hand, would be ok all around since it's designed to be OE replacement.
Other useful tidbits. You can swap to non-abs stuff if you call it a cross-swap between the G-VR4 and the G-GSX. Likewise you can get rid of 4ws via the same ruling. 4-bolt is ok since it uses the same housing as the G-GSX 3-bolt and internals are unrestricted (as are axles for accommodating them).
The 14b and the long-block MUST REMAIN STOCK. But, all manifolds, o2 housings, throttle-bodies, blow-off-valves, intake pipes, etc are all free game. You can even go speed density if you want.
Quoting belize1334:
Well I already sold all of the ARP stuff. Actually heading to the P.O. to ship the last of it now. It's no huge loss...I don't plan on rebuilding all that soon and I really don't think that the stock head-bolts are that big of a problem. I ran 20psi on my 16g with them and they held. I imagine they'll do the same for 20psi on a 14b.
You're right that it's a grey area but I decided to read it on the conservative side. My take is this... if I need them to run the boost I want then they're a performance gain and illegal. On the other hand, if I don't need them...then I don't need them.
I’m getting pretty much the same feedback all the places I research. That is, ARP bolts/studs/anything are not legal. It’s a shame since it really is a realability mod, but oh well. Like you said, the 14b is only going to make so much boost (20ish) and the 4G63t will handle that with all stock parts (assuming everything is healthy and in good running order). The ARPs would be for piece-of-mind and/or longevity, and SCCA should really re-think its rules when it doesn’t allow racers to build those factors into their cars.
If I build the car I intend to do the full ABS and 4WS (and Cruise Control for that matter) deletes on the car. I’m actually tempted to try and find a ’89 base Galant shell to start with, and use my drivetrain (saving my very clean, unmolested, one-owner before me, always CA shell for “restoration†someday).
I guess I’ll have to answer the question though, what can a stock 14b and 4G63t on E85 produce? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Quoting kartorium:
You might also look into running the fwd spindles on the front. Not sure if that would be legal or not.
It's been a long time since I've raced or been active, I've kinda fallin out of it the past two years, but I remember second gear needing to be a bit shorter then I could just rev a bit higher to compensate. This would create a friendlier power curve, unfortunately it sounds like you can't do that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I remember often wanting to shift to first, but it was too slow, so I'd deal with bog in second. Anything to shift the power a bit lower, but not hurt top end too much is good. I remember constantly running second gear out over 7k, but also needing the dig below 3k. Shifting to first (unless on a very tight pivot cone) would create wheel spin, and cost too much valuable time.
Tuning things to rotate with control under breaking/lift worked well for my driving style and the car.
I had no problems with the galant's steering, and with a small nice wheel it responded well.
I now run 255 azenis on an 8.5" wheel and have them tucked easily into the stock fenders. The overall grip is insane, and actually is a bit sketchy on the streets with tracking and the change of snap characteristics. With the right rate springs and a small over-flair you can easily run 275's but the overall diameter and weight starts getting a bit out of control, especially without gobs of hp/tq. I think I remember 285's being a better option cause you could actually reduce the OD by running them? Can't remember though. You should talk to MJ about running tires like this, he could fill you in. He might also have experience with wheel bearing and general hub wear/stress with this setup.
I seem to remember removing items from the front seats back being legal, but that might have been SM only? I'd look into getting carbon hood and trunks if possible and delete the rear spoiler. I remember always being pretty much the heaviest car in class, so any thing you can do to reduce, do it! Even little stuff like switching to non-power antenna.
I don't think modifying the upper strut holes is illegal because you aren't changing geometry. Anything to increase caster and camber is obviously a plus.
Look into running some WI if rules allow. Methanol injection was illegal, but I think just water is fine and can be beneficial with the high boost on the 14b.
Can you run aftermarket proportioning valves in DSP?
Also, good you already have a nice front LSD, that made a big difference on my car.
Maybe I'll get my car back into shape and run this year, might be time for a comeback /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What’s the advantage of the FWD spindles?
The gearing will be interesting. Does anybody have a good MPH calculator for the various gears in a GVR4? Most of the courses I typically run I think shifting to 1st would be a waste of time between the time lost shifting and the tire spin. I do worry about running out of 2nd gear and having to use 3rd too much (again: time lost shifting).
I’ll absolutely be looking for as much back-bar as I can find, and otherwise tuning the car to rotate on lift/brakes. The Z06 turns in so cleanly and is so balanced I’ve gotten spoiled. My Z/28 (’99 LS1 car) that I had before the Z06 did not rotate so I had to set it up to trail-brake for rotation. It worked, and the car was very quick at the AutoX for being a land-yacht. It just takes some specific tuning, and a different driving style (that I hope I can remember /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).
That’s interesting you’re getting that much tire in your GVR4. I’m going to put as much negative camber in the car as I can get (I’d like to see -3* up front and -2* rear but I don’t know if it will be able to get there). The more minimal the flares I have to do (and the less cutting under them) the happier I’d be. That’s another reason I’m considering a base shell to start: I don’t want to cut up this clean GVR4.
Water injection is legal, but w/ E85 I really doubt I’d need it (104 Octane + the cooling effect).
The rules read that you cannot change complete hoods. I think you could probably delete the spoiler under the "same line" rule since non-VR4 Galants did not have the spoiler. I think you could delete the power-antennae on the same basis.
The rules read that you must use the stock "mounting points" for suspension. It is not about geometry as you stated. I believe elongating the mounting holes equates to changing the mounting locations and would NOT be legal.
Brakes are entirely open, including prop-valve.
Quoting belize1334:
For transmissions there are no allowed modifications except that differentials are unrestricted. For my money though any transmission which adds no per-run performance gain is gonna be admissible. That means, I'm ok with DSM transmissions since the shorter 1st gear is less likely to break but actually a detriment up until the breaking point. I'm also ok with things like improved forks and shot-peening and all that since it only makes the transmission stronger and last longer but it won't make the car faster per-se. Also, 4-spider differentials are explicitly legal as differentials in general are open so long as they live in the same "housing" as the original. Double cone gears are out though since they improve shift-feel and could possibly improve your time.
I don't know how you get tires that big to fit. I've got 225/50/16 right now and they barely clear the fender lip and already they rub the inside splash-shield when I turn.
Slotting is the top is allowed as are camber bolts and/or slotting the strut. But you CAN't enlarge the upper strut hole. Since my teins already max out the hole there's no point slotting. But w/ only -2* camber I think I'll put some camber bolts back in to bump it up to -3*. Maybe run -2* in the back.
As for the 16g/14b difference... 16g is illegal... end of story. I don't mind bending the rules when it doesn't give an advantage but even a s16g will make 20% more power then a 14b and that's cheating. That's why my s16g will be up for sale next month.
Another hot tip is gonna be to run the power-steering pump from a n/t 4g63. Since all galants are listed on the same line, any galant from any part may be swapped in (though turbo/engine matings have to be maintained). The DSM's and Galants w/ 2.0 DOHC 4g63 both had the same power-steering pump which is rumored to have a higher-rpm cutout and thus avoid the loss of steering above 6500rpm. So, unlike DSMs where turbo and n/t are in a different class, with galants you can drop that n/a ps pump in there and eliminate a major defect.
It’s funny how differently the rules can be read! Everybody local to me, and I agree that gears cannot be changed. The DSM 1st gear would be advantageous because it’d be more useful in slow turns (it’s pretty clear the GVR4 1st would be useless once on-course, but the DSM might not be). On top of that it’s very well agreed that you can launch harder on the DSM 1st gear, which would be very helpful, especially at a Pro Solo w/ the “drag race†starts.
I do agree 4-spiders, welded, or spools for the center diff would be legal since diffs are totally open.
The rules read that you must use the stock mounting locations and I believe you cannot modify those locations (i.e. slotting). More grey-area stuff to look into though.
Agreed, 14b it is.
Very interesting about the PS pump, I guess that’s another thing to add to my “list†and perhaps another benefit of starting w/ a base shell.
-TJ
Last edited by a moderator:
Quoting crankwalk:
You can do the p/s pump from a 1.8 na dsm to get rid of the low speed cutout.
Also for parking lot liquid to air ic's is going to need a huge heat exchanger (think as big as the old ac condenser). My 911 with the liquid to air did AMAZING on the highway but on a hot parking lot auto x course, the small heat exchanger was not enough to keep the coolant from overflowing. I thought about putting a small fan on it but didn't get around to it.
Quoting belize1334:
I don't know how you get tires that big to fit. I've got 225/50/16 right now and they barely clear the fender lip and already they rub the inside splash-shield when I turn.
Offset. On my te37's I ran 245s for a while and had enough room to do 275's if I threw more camber at it.
Some of the local AutoXers I know don't run a heat-exchanger for their L2A intercoolers. Instead they just run a reservoir w/ ice-water in it. Even if you're doing 2-drivers in the car there's always enough time to put a little more ice in the reservoir (of course, you have to plan ahead and have a cooler w/ some bags of ice with you). In one 30-60 second run I don't think you're going to heat a few gallons of ice-water enough to lose performance from your LSA intercooler.
I was thinking something like this: click might do the job?
Quoting belize1334:
But if you make the offset small then you stick out past the fender. If you make the offset big then you rib the inboard splash shield. I barely clear the fender with my 225 at 40 and I already rub the inboard splash shield at full lock.
As for the heat exchanger, the one that's going in is gonna be 24*2*6 and I'm going to duct it onto the lower half of the radiator so that the main cooling fan draw air through the HE. If I get overheating of if the HE still gets too warm then I'll add another fan. Remember, that an autocross run is only about a minute long with signifant down-time between runs. As long as there's enough water in the system the specific heat of H2O should keep the temps down during the run and then I'll have 15 minutes for it to cool off again. It may not be as effective as a full race FMIC but it'll keep me out of street modified which means I might stand a chance. In SM there's no way I could keep up with 500awhp Evos that cost a hundred-grand to build... I'd rather gamble in the L2A intercooler.
I assume I'd be ditching the inboard splash-shield and any other non-hard parts in the inner wheelwell. This could actually be a problem though for rainy events where I'd figure I'd be a complete over-dog (since the only other AWD car that competes in the class is the under-powered 2.5 RS). I don't want a GVR4 I can't race in the rain!
Any reason you're not thinking of just running a reservoir? Are you worried about street-use? The reservoir-only system would suck hugely for the street. You could always have a heat-exchanger in-line w/ the reservoir as well (just a little extra weight). I totally agree about Street Mod, hell I have Andy McKee's multi-national championship RX7 running SM locally with me, my 'vette can't even hang let alone the GVR4!
Certainly worth figuring out if the Curtis subframe braces are legal as well.
-TJ
You can do the p/s pump from a 1.8 na dsm to get rid of the low speed cutout.
Also for parking lot liquid to air ic's is going to need a huge heat exchanger (think as big as the old ac condenser). My 911 with the liquid to air did AMAZING on the highway but on a hot parking lot auto x course, the small heat exchanger was not enough to keep the coolant from overflowing. I thought about putting a small fan on it but didn't get around to it.
Quoting belize1334:
I don't know how you get tires that big to fit. I've got 225/50/16 right now and they barely clear the fender lip and already they rub the inside splash-shield when I turn.
Offset. On my te37's I ran 245s for a while and had enough room to do 275's if I threw more camber at it.
Some of the local AutoXers I know don't run a heat-exchanger for their L2A intercoolers. Instead they just run a reservoir w/ ice-water in it. Even if you're doing 2-drivers in the car there's always enough time to put a little more ice in the reservoir (of course, you have to plan ahead and have a cooler w/ some bags of ice with you). In one 30-60 second run I don't think you're going to heat a few gallons of ice-water enough to lose performance from your LSA intercooler.
I was thinking something like this: click might do the job?
Quoting belize1334:
But if you make the offset small then you stick out past the fender. If you make the offset big then you rib the inboard splash shield. I barely clear the fender with my 225 at 40 and I already rub the inboard splash shield at full lock.
As for the heat exchanger, the one that's going in is gonna be 24*2*6 and I'm going to duct it onto the lower half of the radiator so that the main cooling fan draw air through the HE. If I get overheating of if the HE still gets too warm then I'll add another fan. Remember, that an autocross run is only about a minute long with signifant down-time between runs. As long as there's enough water in the system the specific heat of H2O should keep the temps down during the run and then I'll have 15 minutes for it to cool off again. It may not be as effective as a full race FMIC but it'll keep me out of street modified which means I might stand a chance. In SM there's no way I could keep up with 500awhp Evos that cost a hundred-grand to build... I'd rather gamble in the L2A intercooler.
I assume I'd be ditching the inboard splash-shield and any other non-hard parts in the inner wheelwell. This could actually be a problem though for rainy events where I'd figure I'd be a complete over-dog (since the only other AWD car that competes in the class is the under-powered 2.5 RS). I don't want a GVR4 I can't race in the rain!
Any reason you're not thinking of just running a reservoir? Are you worried about street-use? The reservoir-only system would suck hugely for the street. You could always have a heat-exchanger in-line w/ the reservoir as well (just a little extra weight). I totally agree about Street Mod, hell I have Andy McKee's multi-national championship RX7 running SM locally with me, my 'vette can't even hang let alone the GVR4!
Certainly worth figuring out if the Curtis subframe braces are legal as well.
-TJ
belize1334
Well-known member
As for the reservoir this is first and foremost my DD so I want a heat exchanger. Also, ice is not legal in sp where it states that cooling may only be accomplished by ambient air.
D'oh, you're right no ice! I guess you could still be a jack-ass and have large containers of ice-water, drain the reservoir after each run and refill. But that would suck out loud.
-TJ
-TJ
belize1334
Well-known member
You're right that the stock mounting locations can't be modified. But the struts are open in general and their design is considered part of the strut which is separate from the mounting location which is whatever the strut bolts to. They attach to the stock mounting locations. I read that to mean that the strut could be slotted (whose to say it wasn't made that way by an aftermarket supplier) as long as the hub is not modified. That's what they do in STX. In fact, STX is weird in that the struts are open and can thus be slotted, but camber bolts are not legal as they are alignment correction tools. So, undersized bolts are illegal but slotting the struts and tipping them in to the same effect is legal... all the Subie guys do it 'cause it's the only way to get to -3* camber.
And I think that even throwing in cold water with no ice would get you in trouble since it would have to have been refrigerated to get below ambient temperature. They could also potentially argue that if you just put in ambient water between runs to replace the hot water coming out that the act of replacing is a mechanical process which negates ambient cooling. I.e. you're "cooling" the water in a process that is unrelated to the vehicle and is therefore not "ambient" cooling in the vehicle.
But honestly, with a big front heat exchanger which fits nicely behind the bumper I'm not worried about it. And with the IC core that I have, even if it's only 90% as good as the spearco 2-231 then it's still over 85% efficient wrt water temps. With coolant at 120* (which is MUCH warmer then I expect it to be) and turbo outlet at 325* that still puts charge temps below 150*, and that's an extreme estimate IMHO.
And I think that even throwing in cold water with no ice would get you in trouble since it would have to have been refrigerated to get below ambient temperature. They could also potentially argue that if you just put in ambient water between runs to replace the hot water coming out that the act of replacing is a mechanical process which negates ambient cooling. I.e. you're "cooling" the water in a process that is unrelated to the vehicle and is therefore not "ambient" cooling in the vehicle.
But honestly, with a big front heat exchanger which fits nicely behind the bumper I'm not worried about it. And with the IC core that I have, even if it's only 90% as good as the spearco 2-231 then it's still over 85% efficient wrt water temps. With coolant at 120* (which is MUCH warmer then I expect it to be) and turbo outlet at 325* that still puts charge temps below 150*, and that's an extreme estimate IMHO.
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Ah, gotchya about the struts. The mounting location on the car stays stock, but the holes on the strut are changed, but the strut is open for mods anyway so that should be legal.
-TJ
-TJ
kartorium
Well-known member
Quoting tjZ06:
What’s the advantage of the FWD spindles?
The gearing will be interesting. Does anybody have a good MPH calculator for the various gears in a GVR4? Most of the courses I typically run I think shifting to 1st would be a waste of time between the time lost shifting and the tire spin. I do worry about running out of 2nd gear and having to use 3rd too much (again: time lost shifting).
I’ll absolutely be looking for as much back-bar as I can find, and otherwise tuning the car to rotate on lift/brakes. The Z06 turns in so cleanly and is so balanced I’ve gotten spoiled. My Z/28 (’99 LS1 car) that I had before the Z06 did not rotate so I had to set it up to trail-brake for rotation. It worked, and the car was very quick at the AutoX for being a land-yacht. It just takes some specific tuning, and a different driving style (that I hope I can remember /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).
That’s interesting you’re getting that much tire in your GVR4. I’m going to put as much negative camber in the car as I can get (I’d like to see -3* up front and -2* rear but I don’t know if it will be able to get there). The more minimal the flares I have to do (and the less cutting under them) the happier I’d be. That’s another reason I’m considering a base shell to start: I don’t want to cut up this clean GVR4.
Water injection is legal, but w/ E85 I really doubt I’d need it (104 Octane + the cooling effect).
The rules read that you cannot change complete hoods. I think you could probably delete the spoiler under the "same line" rule since non-VR4 Galants did not have the spoiler. I think you could delete the power-antennae on the same basis.
The rules read that you must use the stock "mounting points" for suspension. It is not about geometry as you stated. I believe elongating the mounting holes equates to changing the mounting locations and would NOT be legal.
Brakes are entirely open, including prop-valve.
IIRC the FWD spindles had slightly less upward offset on the arm that mounts to the tie rod. It was recently discussed in the tech or general section.
I didn't see you were running E85, in that case WI would probably just be added weight. I don't have E85 around here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif
Man! DSP has got some tough rules! I'm guessing you couldn't gut the stock hood either.
A wilwood prop valve proved itself useful when I deleted abs and went to a big wilwood setup.
Oh, and by no means was fitting the 255's on 8.5's easy, it took a fair bit of work, experimenting, grinding, testing, spacing, etc.
What’s the advantage of the FWD spindles?
The gearing will be interesting. Does anybody have a good MPH calculator for the various gears in a GVR4? Most of the courses I typically run I think shifting to 1st would be a waste of time between the time lost shifting and the tire spin. I do worry about running out of 2nd gear and having to use 3rd too much (again: time lost shifting).
I’ll absolutely be looking for as much back-bar as I can find, and otherwise tuning the car to rotate on lift/brakes. The Z06 turns in so cleanly and is so balanced I’ve gotten spoiled. My Z/28 (’99 LS1 car) that I had before the Z06 did not rotate so I had to set it up to trail-brake for rotation. It worked, and the car was very quick at the AutoX for being a land-yacht. It just takes some specific tuning, and a different driving style (that I hope I can remember /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).
That’s interesting you’re getting that much tire in your GVR4. I’m going to put as much negative camber in the car as I can get (I’d like to see -3* up front and -2* rear but I don’t know if it will be able to get there). The more minimal the flares I have to do (and the less cutting under them) the happier I’d be. That’s another reason I’m considering a base shell to start: I don’t want to cut up this clean GVR4.
Water injection is legal, but w/ E85 I really doubt I’d need it (104 Octane + the cooling effect).
The rules read that you cannot change complete hoods. I think you could probably delete the spoiler under the "same line" rule since non-VR4 Galants did not have the spoiler. I think you could delete the power-antennae on the same basis.
The rules read that you must use the stock "mounting points" for suspension. It is not about geometry as you stated. I believe elongating the mounting holes equates to changing the mounting locations and would NOT be legal.
Brakes are entirely open, including prop-valve.
IIRC the FWD spindles had slightly less upward offset on the arm that mounts to the tie rod. It was recently discussed in the tech or general section.
I didn't see you were running E85, in that case WI would probably just be added weight. I don't have E85 around here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bawling.gif
Man! DSP has got some tough rules! I'm guessing you couldn't gut the stock hood either.
A wilwood prop valve proved itself useful when I deleted abs and went to a big wilwood setup.
Oh, and by no means was fitting the 255's on 8.5's easy, it took a fair bit of work, experimenting, grinding, testing, spacing, etc.
kartorium, thanks for the info! Do you have more details on the grinding, spacing etc you had to do for the 255s? I think 255s might get it done on the car for DSP, though I'd much rather have more tire but I'm still not feeling like cutting up this pristine GVR4. Even if I do go wider I'd like to make the flares as minimal as possible, so I'd like to get "255 worth" of tire inside the fender, and only push 20mm or 30mm out. I figure the biggest issue is going to be the rear of the wheel-well in front of the front doors when the car is at full-lock so minimizing the extra tire sticking out would minimize how far back the fender would need to be cut there to allow lock.
Speaking of tires, A6s are "the tire" and there's a few interesting sizes. For comparison here's the stock tire sizes vs. the Hoosier A6 sizes that "might" be in consideration:
[*]Stock = 195/60-15 - 7.67" Width - 24.21" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 36-61[*]275/35-15 - 10.82" Width - 22.57" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 34-57[*]275/45-16 - 10.82" Width - 25.74" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 38-65[*]275/40-17 - 10.82" Width - 25.66" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 38-64[*]295/35-17 - 11.61" Width - 25.1" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 37-63[*]275/35-18 - 10.82" Width - 25.57" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 38-64[*]285/30-18 - 11.22" Width - 24.73" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 37-62[*]295/30-18 - 11.61" Width - 24.96" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 37-63[/list]
All MPHs are rounded to the nearest MPH and based on a 7k rpm shift out of 1st to determine the bottom end of the MPH and 7k rpm redline in 2nd to determine the top of 2nd. I know 4G63s like more than 7k rpm, but internals (including valve springs and such) have to stay stock, and the 14b isn't going to support a lot of RPM so I'm figuring 7k rpm is still a good ceiling.
Almost all of the tire sizes make the 1-2 shift in the mid 30mph range. It looks like most of them are going to put the car somewhere around ~4500 RPM on the 1-2 shift. That being said, running the 14b I think it'll still make full boost and max torque way below 4500, so going slower than mid-30s but not shifting down to 2nd should be fine. For example, on the 295/30-18s in 2nd it could drop all the way to about 27mph and still be at 3k rpm. I think that will be around the torque peak w/ the tiny turbo and E85 allowing lots of timing. It'd have to be a really, really slow course to require a shift to 1st. The 275/35-15s would mean 3k rpm would take it all the way down to about 24 MPH in 2nd.
I was leaning towards the 15s or 16s as I plan to run stock brakes (stock hardware, race pads etc.) but the 17s or 18s would always leave me the option of BBKs later.
-TJ
Speaking of tires, A6s are "the tire" and there's a few interesting sizes. For comparison here's the stock tire sizes vs. the Hoosier A6 sizes that "might" be in consideration:
[*]Stock = 195/60-15 - 7.67" Width - 24.21" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 36-61[*]275/35-15 - 10.82" Width - 22.57" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 34-57[*]275/45-16 - 10.82" Width - 25.74" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 38-65[*]275/40-17 - 10.82" Width - 25.66" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 38-64[*]295/35-17 - 11.61" Width - 25.1" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 37-63[*]275/35-18 - 10.82" Width - 25.57" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 38-64[*]285/30-18 - 11.22" Width - 24.73" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 37-62[*]295/30-18 - 11.61" Width - 24.96" Height - 2nd Gear MPH: 37-63[/list]
All MPHs are rounded to the nearest MPH and based on a 7k rpm shift out of 1st to determine the bottom end of the MPH and 7k rpm redline in 2nd to determine the top of 2nd. I know 4G63s like more than 7k rpm, but internals (including valve springs and such) have to stay stock, and the 14b isn't going to support a lot of RPM so I'm figuring 7k rpm is still a good ceiling.
Almost all of the tire sizes make the 1-2 shift in the mid 30mph range. It looks like most of them are going to put the car somewhere around ~4500 RPM on the 1-2 shift. That being said, running the 14b I think it'll still make full boost and max torque way below 4500, so going slower than mid-30s but not shifting down to 2nd should be fine. For example, on the 295/30-18s in 2nd it could drop all the way to about 27mph and still be at 3k rpm. I think that will be around the torque peak w/ the tiny turbo and E85 allowing lots of timing. It'd have to be a really, really slow course to require a shift to 1st. The 275/35-15s would mean 3k rpm would take it all the way down to about 24 MPH in 2nd.
I was leaning towards the 15s or 16s as I plan to run stock brakes (stock hardware, race pads etc.) but the 17s or 18s would always leave me the option of BBKs later.
-TJ
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kartorium
Well-known member
PM me sometime and I'll write up what it took.
belize1334
Well-known member
The question of intake pipe legality in SP was raised in the other thread...
The rules don't explicitly state that the intake pipe can be removed and/or swapped but it seems to be implied by other statements. Also, it seems like alot of people run them but I can't find anyone that explicitly states this.
But, there is a ruling that components may be removed if they are no longer needed and can be simply unbolted. So, if you didn't have a MAF, you wouldn't need an intake pipe, and you could remove it. Speed density FTMFW!!!
The rules don't explicitly state that the intake pipe can be removed and/or swapped but it seems to be implied by other statements. Also, it seems like alot of people run them but I can't find anyone that explicitly states this.
But, there is a ruling that components may be removed if they are no longer needed and can be simply unbolted. So, if you didn't have a MAF, you wouldn't need an intake pipe, and you could remove it. Speed density FTMFW!!!
belize1334
Well-known member
First results are in...
click
You'll note that there aren't many people at this local event... Only one other car in DSP. It was an MGB. I'm all smiles. Car ran well except for some smoking (valve stems I think) and getting to hot in the parking lot. I need some better insulation for the L2A core and a dedicated fan for the front heat-exchanger. Boost was only 15psi for now but it was more than enough for the course I was on.
click
You'll note that there aren't many people at this local event... Only one other car in DSP. It was an MGB. I'm all smiles. Car ran well except for some smoking (valve stems I think) and getting to hot in the parking lot. I need some better insulation for the L2A core and a dedicated fan for the front heat-exchanger. Boost was only 15psi for now but it was more than enough for the course I was on.
Olson
Well-known member
8th on raw time is damn good for the first time out.
belize1334
Well-known member
Well it wasn't exactly my first time. I've been to a few autocross events before and I've run my car in three of them. Though that was with a different turbo and not as good of suspension.
Still... I'm pleased.
Still... I'm pleased.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worthy.gif Quoting curtis:
What you need to find is an original HKS turbo upgrade manifold, o2 and manifold and call it stock. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh one more thing If they allow the same for the vette I have an internal plumbed lS6 intake with a 300 shot probably a little much in a parking lot race but you could turn the car quite easily with the gas pedal plus its all hidden so it looks stock. Did that in an SCCA event in nashville once. Hit like 8 cones and totally missed the last corner but was smoking 4th through the straight away and all the V8 guys were clapping for me.
What you need to find is an original HKS turbo upgrade manifold, o2 and manifold and call it stock. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh one more thing If they allow the same for the vette I have an internal plumbed lS6 intake with a 300 shot probably a little much in a parking lot race but you could turn the car quite easily with the gas pedal plus its all hidden so it looks stock. Did that in an SCCA event in nashville once. Hit like 8 cones and totally missed the last corner but was smoking 4th through the straight away and all the V8 guys were clapping for me.
belize1334
Well-known member
Oh and by the way, I forgot to update this but I did get the official word on intake piping etc. The ENTIRE intake route, with the exception of the compressor housing, is considered part of the fuel-injection system, and is thus totally unrestricted. That means the MAF, the pipes, everything. There is no restriction on what you do with these components.
