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Front Hub?
- Thread starter BpuVR4
- Start date
SouthCaliVR4
Well-known member
No, sometimes they just get loose but that would be the rare exception. if you find a loose wheel bearing re-torque & it works loose again the bearing is bad.
Bad wheel bearings will also cause excessive brake pedal travel or stacking.
Bad wheel bearings will also cause excessive brake pedal travel or stacking.
prove_it
Well-known member
Loose wheel bearings are an exception and rare?
toybreaker
iconoclast
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Messages
- 3,581
This is what a "noisy" wheel bearing looks like when you tear it down.
There's a lot of ways to end up here, but a lot of times, it's something we did.
... to put it another way, they don;t fail in service very often without a cause.
When they start to make noise, you're hearing the effect of unround balls rolling in an unsmooth race
This happens a couple of different ways, but it usually starts with a flat spot on one or more of the balls and/or a "dent" in the race.
The most common way this happens is flat rate mooks have used an impact gun to install/remove the axle nut while performing one service or another that requires the removal of the front axles. It's torque spec is (grrrr, can;t remember off the top of my head /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
... so I'll just say, preetty fawkin tight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
and the "rattle" of the impact gun will pound the assemble in a way they will never see in service, especially when a gun is used to tighten them!
Nothing drastic happens,
... immediately ...
and a few folks will probablly argue that they do it all the time with no problems.
Thing is, they have just for all intents and purposes, perfomed a brinnell test between two very hard surfaces, and either the ball now has a flat spot, or the race has a small dent.
gaur~an~damn~teed
Now, every time the flat spot of the ball hits the race, a high shock loading will be delivered to a very small local area. This will make a teeny, tiny dent. Over time, enough denting will occur to make the surface of the race bumpy, which fawks up the rest of the balls, which procceeds to make more dents,
...eventually the thing looks like ten miles off washboarded road, and none of the balls are round.
(Click on the pic above, then click the "+" over the race on the left, that's ~1000 miles after an axle replacemet where McGilla the Gorilla used a gun to tighten the axle nut)
... sounded like there was a dc-3 taxiying for take off up in the front of the car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
Another way to end up here is by applying a load without an axle in place, holding things together.
A lot of times, folks will pull the axles to yoke the motor/trans, and then life intervines and the car has to be moved.
... without an axle in it/the outter c.v. pinching the two races/halves together, the races can 'walk" on the hub.
Again, nothing drastic happens
...immediately ...
And a lot of times, you might get lucky and get away with it, but many times things don;t cinch up just like they were. When you install an axle and tighten things up, the preload will be off when you do torque it up.
... too loose, and then the balls won't track well, and they'll make an oblong "orbit" instead of just rotating symmetrically in their races.
Again, you might get a couple of thousand miles out of it before it starts making noise,
... but the faster you drive/more you load it up in the twisties, the sooner it will die.
gaur~an~damn~teed
To keep things pinched together, I've used a couple of t-case bolts combined with a couple of nuts and large area washers off the front crossmember as a get by/temporary solution.
... anything to keep it all squarshed together so the car can be moved.
Unfortunately, even if you think ahead and cobble something together, it won;t seal up very well, and this can allow dirt and moisture to enter.
...that's what killed the bearing on the right in the top picture. Buddy listened well and cobblefied some random hardware and pinched it together. he then rolled it over to the wash bay and procceeded to steam the engine compartment till it was clean clean.
... got about 500 miles down the road, and things went sour.
This is why this is my favorite technique for dealing with jsb status is to "ginzu" an old axle and use the stub as a prop. This lets you torque things back up before applying any load, so nothing moves.
It seals up well enough to steam the engine compartment without contaminating the bearing, and you can roll it over to the wash bay without hurting a damn thing.
... hell you can even load it on a roll back and move it from shop to shop
... for years
... like a lucky charm
... not that I would know anything about that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
There's a lot of ways to end up here, but a lot of times, it's something we did.
... to put it another way, they don;t fail in service very often without a cause.
When they start to make noise, you're hearing the effect of unround balls rolling in an unsmooth race
This happens a couple of different ways, but it usually starts with a flat spot on one or more of the balls and/or a "dent" in the race.
The most common way this happens is flat rate mooks have used an impact gun to install/remove the axle nut while performing one service or another that requires the removal of the front axles. It's torque spec is (grrrr, can;t remember off the top of my head /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
... so I'll just say, preetty fawkin tight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
and the "rattle" of the impact gun will pound the assemble in a way they will never see in service, especially when a gun is used to tighten them!
Nothing drastic happens,
... immediately ...
and a few folks will probablly argue that they do it all the time with no problems.
Thing is, they have just for all intents and purposes, perfomed a brinnell test between two very hard surfaces, and either the ball now has a flat spot, or the race has a small dent.
gaur~an~damn~teed
Now, every time the flat spot of the ball hits the race, a high shock loading will be delivered to a very small local area. This will make a teeny, tiny dent. Over time, enough denting will occur to make the surface of the race bumpy, which fawks up the rest of the balls, which procceeds to make more dents,
...eventually the thing looks like ten miles off washboarded road, and none of the balls are round.
(Click on the pic above, then click the "+" over the race on the left, that's ~1000 miles after an axle replacemet where McGilla the Gorilla used a gun to tighten the axle nut)
... sounded like there was a dc-3 taxiying for take off up in the front of the car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
Another way to end up here is by applying a load without an axle in place, holding things together.
A lot of times, folks will pull the axles to yoke the motor/trans, and then life intervines and the car has to be moved.
... without an axle in it/the outter c.v. pinching the two races/halves together, the races can 'walk" on the hub.
Again, nothing drastic happens
...immediately ...
And a lot of times, you might get lucky and get away with it, but many times things don;t cinch up just like they were. When you install an axle and tighten things up, the preload will be off when you do torque it up.
... too loose, and then the balls won't track well, and they'll make an oblong "orbit" instead of just rotating symmetrically in their races.
Again, you might get a couple of thousand miles out of it before it starts making noise,
... but the faster you drive/more you load it up in the twisties, the sooner it will die.
gaur~an~damn~teed
To keep things pinched together, I've used a couple of t-case bolts combined with a couple of nuts and large area washers off the front crossmember as a get by/temporary solution.
... anything to keep it all squarshed together so the car can be moved.
Unfortunately, even if you think ahead and cobble something together, it won;t seal up very well, and this can allow dirt and moisture to enter.
...that's what killed the bearing on the right in the top picture. Buddy listened well and cobblefied some random hardware and pinched it together. he then rolled it over to the wash bay and procceeded to steam the engine compartment till it was clean clean.
... got about 500 miles down the road, and things went sour.
This is why this is my favorite technique for dealing with jsb status is to "ginzu" an old axle and use the stub as a prop. This lets you torque things back up before applying any load, so nothing moves.
It seals up well enough to steam the engine compartment without contaminating the bearing, and you can roll it over to the wash bay without hurting a damn thing.
... hell you can even load it on a roll back and move it from shop to shop
... for years
... like a lucky charm
... not that I would know anything about that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
SouthCaliVR4
Well-known member
Quoting prove_it:
Loose wheel bearings are an exception and rare?
Edited for clarity; For them to demonstrate they're going bad only by getting loose while not making any noise.
Loose wheel bearings are an exception and rare?
Edited for clarity; For them to demonstrate they're going bad only by getting loose while not making any noise.
Last edited:
The brinnelling and wear that toybreaker mentions can begin from a good (read: bad) pothole hit too.
FlyingEagle
Staff member
Splines do taper off at either end, but that photo is so grainy it is hard to tell. Short of the shaft twisting the splines, and fusing to the hub ... which means not being able to get the axle out or severe play between the axle cup and the hub splines (something you can feel with them together and wigglying them), it should be re-useable.
By what process are they saying it is unusable?
Was it when they heated the inner race you see still attached and it didn't slide right off while they were spinning the whole assembly as quick as possible. Applying heat directly to the race is the most, surefire way to get this to separate quickly. If things are still too gunked up, READ tight, and it hangs up part way, time to get in their with an air hammer and a chisel bit. Heck with everything that far apart, putting it on a press with a bearing separator should have been my first thought before babbling all this out onto the page.
By what process are they saying it is unusable?
Was it when they heated the inner race you see still attached and it didn't slide right off while they were spinning the whole assembly as quick as possible. Applying heat directly to the race is the most, surefire way to get this to separate quickly. If things are still too gunked up, READ tight, and it hangs up part way, time to get in their with an air hammer and a chisel bit. Heck with everything that far apart, putting it on a press with a bearing separator should have been my first thought before babbling all this out onto the page.
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they told me it got too hot, and couldnt get that race off...cant those just be cut off? after looking at it more closely...i really dont see what they couldnt do with it. unfortunately ive never done a bearing job before.
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FlyingEagle
Staff member
Get someone who can remove the tone ring.
Heat the ring directly with an oxy/acetylene torch tip while spinning the hub as fast as possible on some sort of rigged up pinnacle/point. Usually I have a socket and or extension combo held in a vice to provide this.
While heating it as close as possible with the blue tips to the race, the effect will be that the race alone takes the heat and expands quicker than the hub ring.
If it won't come off after a couple attempts, use and air hammer with a chisel if you are adept with your grip and aim, or use a cut-off wheel and score it just shy of the hub ring and use a chisel and hammer to shatter the remaining metal apart. The bearing race hasn't even turned color yet! I'm not worried about that part coming off, nor the integrity of the parts in general. Hubs all around the world are torched/beaten on, (not saying that is the perfect way to do it - a press would be) and never create an issue long term.
Anyways, you can use a bearing separator kit and shove it in a press right after heating it (and the race not just working it's way down by gravity) to facilitate the movement. Just be sure to use some emery cloth or likewise light grade grit sandpaper to clean up the hub sleeve first.
Heat the ring directly with an oxy/acetylene torch tip while spinning the hub as fast as possible on some sort of rigged up pinnacle/point. Usually I have a socket and or extension combo held in a vice to provide this.
While heating it as close as possible with the blue tips to the race, the effect will be that the race alone takes the heat and expands quicker than the hub ring.
If it won't come off after a couple attempts, use and air hammer with a chisel if you are adept with your grip and aim, or use a cut-off wheel and score it just shy of the hub ring and use a chisel and hammer to shatter the remaining metal apart. The bearing race hasn't even turned color yet! I'm not worried about that part coming off, nor the integrity of the parts in general. Hubs all around the world are torched/beaten on, (not saying that is the perfect way to do it - a press would be) and never create an issue long term.
Anyways, you can use a bearing separator kit and shove it in a press right after heating it (and the race not just working it's way down by gravity) to facilitate the movement. Just be sure to use some emery cloth or likewise light grade grit sandpaper to clean up the hub sleeve first.
89Mirageman
Well-known member
Looks to me like they just didn't know what they were doing. Like Tim mentioned, you can score that inner bearing race with a cutoff wheel and then a few nicely aimed whacks with a chisel and it'll loosen right up. Then just clean it all up and press it back in your knuckle/bearing.
prove_it
Well-known member
Quoting FlyingEagle:
Anyways, you can use a bearing separator kit and shove it in a press right after heating it (and the race not just working it's way down by gravity) to facilitate the movement. Just be sure to use some emery cloth or likewise light grade grit sandpaper to clean up the hub sleeve first.
I do not recommend sanding on the hub sleeve. You can create a small amount of play and it will ruin a new bearing immediately. Then you'll be replacing it anyway.
To the OP, I would find a shop that can do this right. I've never heated a bearing race to remove a race. It can warp the spindle ever so slightly. Even a tiny amount (0.005") will cause a wheel shake that worsens at higher speeds. I have seen that happen. I honestly would not use a heated spindle to avoid that chance. There are tools that will remove the race without heat. A cut off wheel is one. A bearing press is another. Heat is not one.
Anyways, you can use a bearing separator kit and shove it in a press right after heating it (and the race not just working it's way down by gravity) to facilitate the movement. Just be sure to use some emery cloth or likewise light grade grit sandpaper to clean up the hub sleeve first.
I do not recommend sanding on the hub sleeve. You can create a small amount of play and it will ruin a new bearing immediately. Then you'll be replacing it anyway.
To the OP, I would find a shop that can do this right. I've never heated a bearing race to remove a race. It can warp the spindle ever so slightly. Even a tiny amount (0.005") will cause a wheel shake that worsens at higher speeds. I have seen that happen. I honestly would not use a heated spindle to avoid that chance. There are tools that will remove the race without heat. A cut off wheel is one. A bearing press is another. Heat is not one.
here's other side, didn't realize i didn't upload that one. I'm assuming that chipped area is a nonfactor. if so, thanks for the advice so far guys, for some reason understanding this deal was harder for me to get than others.
prove_it
Well-known member
That chip is a bad thing. That's where the other race will sit and can cause it to spin. New spindle is needed.
damn so i assumed wrong then...any idea if it's cause by wear, or man made? also, i should ask now if it was wear, if it would wear on the piece that the hub attaches to- which houses the bearing, or if the bearings just take the brunt of it.
not my pic, but the part on the left
not my pic, but the part on the left
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89Mirageman
Well-known member
That chip is not from wear. Someone dropped it or whacked it with a hammer or something.
prove_it
Well-known member
It's man made, not mitsu made. Looks like it got overheated which made it weak. Dropping it or hitting it then finished it off.
If your still on 4 lug, now would be a great time to convert.
If your still on 4 lug, now would be a great time to convert.
