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Crankwalk?
- Thread starter Coltsfan
- Start date
prove_it
Well-known member
Hows the other mains and rod bearings
biglady112
Well-known member
Setting the thrust or seating the thrust is a joke. Hammering or seating the crank is a waste of time. If your clearances are right you will not have issue. If your machining is on then things will go smooth. In almost twenty years I have never done it. And I have assembledover 125 4G63's. I tap the thrust into place, torque it all down and go about the rest of the assembly. Then again, we don't usually run virgin cranks. They are all taken to our crank guy and usually machined. I could not even remember the last time i used a stock untouched crank in an engine.
It was wrong before you ever started.
It was wrong before you ever started.
^+1. If its getting new bearings, its getting polished/turned by my machinest. my stock crank still needed "correction" to receive a set of factory pistons.
Those were tri-metal bearings you installed, right? full oil groove center or just partial?
Those were tri-metal bearings you installed, right? full oil groove center or just partial?
I haven't pulled the whole thing apart yet, but I did find flecks of crud in the main face of the bearing too. Only on the trailing edge of both bearings. The mains are a $29 set of Clevites, so probably not tri metal.
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
I doubt it was improper assembly, bad machining, contamination, or any of the above. The crank end play was clearly in spec in the picture shown, so unless it was checked improperly, there's no reason to believe the clearances were off. One side of the thrust looks way more trashed than the other (I'm assuming that's not the clutch side of the bearing), which would indicate to me the clutch was putting unnecessary pressure on the crank thrust. If that was the case, the crank thrust spent considerable amounts of time without lubrication, hence the one severely trashed thrust surface.
Think about it. The protective barrier of the oil film on the thrust surface was eliminated by something, and it wasn't equal on both sides. Pretty indicative of a clutch issue, which is typically the most common cause of crankwalk on a 6 bolt block.
Was the clutch adjusted properly? Did you check the slave to insure it returned when you pushed in the clutch fork/slave rod. Did you verify the relief port in the clutch master wasn't blocked? Is your clutch safety switch disabled? Do you hold the clutch pedal down at stop lights, or unnecessarily?
Think about it. The protective barrier of the oil film on the thrust surface was eliminated by something, and it wasn't equal on both sides. Pretty indicative of a clutch issue, which is typically the most common cause of crankwalk on a 6 bolt block.
Was the clutch adjusted properly? Did you check the slave to insure it returned when you pushed in the clutch fork/slave rod. Did you verify the relief port in the clutch master wasn't blocked? Is your clutch safety switch disabled? Do you hold the clutch pedal down at stop lights, or unnecessarily?
No the clutch switch wasn't disabled, and yeah maybe I held it down more than I needed to. The clutch is adjusted right, but it wasn't killing the thrust surface prior to the rebuild. This was only 2000 miles in! And yeah, the opposite thrust surface still has a paint mark on it, indicating that it wasn't been worn at all.
I'm thinking maybe contamination, because I built my Colt engine at least seven years ago and never disabled the clutch switch on that one either. That engine has performed thousands of miles of summer DD duty, years of autocross, and literally hundreds of drag passes on at least four different clutch sets. The machine shop said they cleaned the block, but who knows. I should have done it myself.
I'm thinking maybe contamination, because I built my Colt engine at least seven years ago and never disabled the clutch switch on that one either. That engine has performed thousands of miles of summer DD duty, years of autocross, and literally hundreds of drag passes on at least four different clutch sets. The machine shop said they cleaned the block, but who knows. I should have done it myself.
The uneven wear on the thrust surfaces doesnt lead me to beleive it was foreign debris. Something was pushing that crank, be it drivetrain or block related
Here's my mess this past month. A slight rattle when started snowballed into a complete longblock "inspection"
but even then I had the crank sorted out before it went back in, i couldn't trust it still being stock with new bearings
Here's my mess this past month. A slight rattle when started snowballed into a complete longblock "inspection"
but even then I had the crank sorted out before it went back in, i couldn't trust it still being stock with new bearings
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
^ I agree. If it were a dirty build, I think you'd see more evidence in the rod and main bearing surfaces. The pictures you posted looked pretty good to me.
Bottom line, something trashed the loaded side of the thrust bearing only. There's only a few things that can do that; the clutch being the most likely culprit. There are a million factors that could have made your current scenario different than your Colt, and even the last shortblock configuration that was in the car.
Can you verify your oil pressure at idle was adequate?
Sorry, dude. This really sucks. I was really impressed when you posted good results after investing so little in this build. Is the crank damaged at all?
Bottom line, something trashed the loaded side of the thrust bearing only. There's only a few things that can do that; the clutch being the most likely culprit. There are a million factors that could have made your current scenario different than your Colt, and even the last shortblock configuration that was in the car.
Can you verify your oil pressure at idle was adequate?
Sorry, dude. This really sucks. I was really impressed when you posted good results after investing so little in this build. Is the crank damaged at all?
Yeah the crank is pretty groovy on the thrust surface. The pressure plate and clutch are the same that came with the car (solid disk, yellow plate)act maybe. It feels normal/average to me, other than engaging half an inch from the floor, but it's always done that too. The pedal effort isn't much harder than the Clutchmasters FX700 that's currently in my Colt. The slave pushes back freely, so I don't know what to think.
All I can come up with is to clean it out, put the crank that came with the car back in, and replace the rod and main bearings again. I don't have an oil pressure gauge, but the oil light never came on until the other day when I pushed the clutch, and the oil pump showed zero signs of wear when I put it together. The crank that came with the car has zero damage to the thrust area by the way. One change I made to the clutch was replacing the stock flywheel with an ACT streetlite, but I can't see how that could be the problem.
All I can come up with is to clean it out, put the crank that came with the car back in, and replace the rod and main bearings again. I don't have an oil pressure gauge, but the oil light never came on until the other day when I pushed the clutch, and the oil pump showed zero signs of wear when I put it together. The crank that came with the car has zero damage to the thrust area by the way. One change I made to the clutch was replacing the stock flywheel with an ACT streetlite, but I can't see how that could be the problem.
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
How did you prime the engine? Maybe try the T00ners method: click
It's cheap insurance.
Also, trying to wrap my head around how the oil pressure light came on. If the car was full of oil, that's pretty hard to do. I suppose as the crank journals move in the main bearing saddles, the oil channels in the bearings and the oil holes in the crank get misaligned? I guess this could temporarily cut oil flow and starve the pump. But damn, that's A LOT of movement. Did the oil light only come on when you depressed the clutch pedal?
At this point, what do you really have to lose by cleaning it out and swapping in a new set of bearings? I'd say go for it. It's going to be a pain with the motor in the car, though.
It's cheap insurance.
Also, trying to wrap my head around how the oil pressure light came on. If the car was full of oil, that's pretty hard to do. I suppose as the crank journals move in the main bearing saddles, the oil channels in the bearings and the oil holes in the crank get misaligned? I guess this could temporarily cut oil flow and starve the pump. But damn, that's A LOT of movement. Did the oil light only come on when you depressed the clutch pedal?
At this point, what do you really have to lose by cleaning it out and swapping in a new set of bearings? I'd say go for it. It's going to be a pain with the motor in the car, though.
Yeah the engine is coming out at this point. It did have a lot of movement, and depressing the clutch was creating enough drag to slow the idle down to 400-500, and even stall it. The light only came on when it was hot, idling, and as I held the clutch down. After it cooled for an hour the light didn't come on pressing the clutch, and as I drove it home, I kept the RPM from dropping low enough to trigger the light. Aside from the couple times I stalled it coasting up to a light, the light stayed off the whole ride home. I wonder if it trashed a balance shaft bearing and lost pressure to the center main. The balance shafts didn't spin as freely as one would hope after the machine shop pressed the new bearings in, but after priming it for a while, they both moved freely enough to mostly drop to the lowest point of the rotation on their own.
The priming was done with a half inch drill motor and a 14mm socket just before I put the timing belt on.
The priming was done with a half inch drill motor and a 14mm socket just before I put the timing belt on.
Quoting GSTwithPSI:
I suppose as the crank journals move in the main bearing saddles, the oil channels in the bearings and the oil holes in the crank get misaligned? I guess this could temporarily cut oil flow and starve the pump.
Not sure I follow your thinking here. Pump supply is from the pan and long before the crank feed. Are you thinking blockage was causing lack of RETURN flow to the pan so the pump starved that way?
I suppose as the crank journals move in the main bearing saddles, the oil channels in the bearings and the oil holes in the crank get misaligned? I guess this could temporarily cut oil flow and starve the pump.
Not sure I follow your thinking here. Pump supply is from the pan and long before the crank feed. Are you thinking blockage was causing lack of RETURN flow to the pan so the pump starved that way?
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
^For starving the pump, yes. But, I'd think there would still be enough oil in the pan to cover the sump, which is why I don't completely understand it if the oil level wasn't low.
I was also referring to the journals themselves being starved if the crank oil passages and bearing channels became severely misaligned. Again, I'd assume the crank would have to move a good bit before that could happen.
I was also referring to the journals themselves being starved if the crank oil passages and bearing channels became severely misaligned. Again, I'd assume the crank would have to move a good bit before that could happen.
prove_it
Well-known member
If the pump starved, then the 1 and 2 rod bearings would be toast. This I know. Been there done that.
GSTwithPSI
Well-known member
Yeah, I agree, Ryan. The bearings looked pretty good from the pics that were posted.
What else would cause low oil pressure in a car full of oil if the pump wasn't starved in one way or another though? Maybe it bound up somehow?
What else would cause low oil pressure in a car full of oil if the pump wasn't starved in one way or another though? Maybe it bound up somehow?
prove_it
Well-known member
Lack of assembly lube on the thrust surface. Took a while for it to wear, but initial start-up damaged it, then constant clutch use accelerated it.
swe_gvr4_1991
Well-known member
Was the balance shafts eliminated on this engine? If so how was the inner bearing surface oil hole blocked?
Quoting prove_it:
If the pump starved, then the 1 and 2 rod bearings would be toast. This I know. Been there done that.
Me too.
If the pump starved, then the 1 and 2 rod bearings would be toast. This I know. Been there done that.
Me too.
I got over my initial disgust and lack of motivation to do anything with this fine piece of machinery, and pulled the engine. The Balance shaft bearings and rod bearings seem to be undamaged. In fact the other four mains look decent as well besides a small scratch in one of them from a speck of debris in the oil.
Looking back, I think I know the cause of the failure. I forgot to tighten the banjo bolt on my fuel filter, so initial startup took a ton of cranking, followed by some sputtering, and a stall. I had already washed away all the assembly lube a day or two beforehand when I primed the engine for a solid 5-6 minutes. I heard the dripping fuel, and corrected the leak, but by then I may have already scuffed the thrust surface of the bearing. I ordered the $56 mains instead of the $32 mains this time, because they claim to have <b>"Sealed Power's patented “Ramp and Flat™” Contoured Flange® design, a significant improvement in engine-bearing technology, doubles thrust-load capability, reduces wear dramatically and improves lubricity between the flange face and the thrust surface"</b> and I ordered another set of Sealed Power rod bearings as well since I'm changing the crank.
I'll also be unplugging the clutch safety switch too since I am now a believer.
Looking back, I think I know the cause of the failure. I forgot to tighten the banjo bolt on my fuel filter, so initial startup took a ton of cranking, followed by some sputtering, and a stall. I had already washed away all the assembly lube a day or two beforehand when I primed the engine for a solid 5-6 minutes. I heard the dripping fuel, and corrected the leak, but by then I may have already scuffed the thrust surface of the bearing. I ordered the $56 mains instead of the $32 mains this time, because they claim to have <b>"Sealed Power's patented “Ramp and Flat™” Contoured Flange® design, a significant improvement in engine-bearing technology, doubles thrust-load capability, reduces wear dramatically and improves lubricity between the flange face and the thrust surface"</b> and I ordered another set of Sealed Power rod bearings as well since I'm changing the crank.
I'll also be unplugging the clutch safety switch too since I am now a believer.
