strokin4dr
Well-known member
They have all been here less than a year though. They are learning. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
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are our cars 50/50?
- Thread starter Brunoboy
- Start date
Quoting Dialcaliper:
The important thing to remember with differentials is that weight distribution (60:40) does not matter, and it's usually where people pull erroneous "constant" 60/40 or 40/60 numbers from. Also, almost every aftermarket diff is default 50/50 with a torque bias capability. The only diff that is not is the open Cusco planetary "tarmac gear" which is 35/65. Only planetary open differentials or planetary LSD's (Torsen T-3) have an uneven torque split.
Understeering like a pig has more to do with the way the car's suspension is set up than just the AWD.
FWI - Most VW group vehicles use the torsen or planetary worm gear center diffs as well, such as Audis with quatro.
The important thing to remember with differentials is that weight distribution (60:40) does not matter, and it's usually where people pull erroneous "constant" 60/40 or 40/60 numbers from. Also, almost every aftermarket diff is default 50/50 with a torque bias capability. The only diff that is not is the open Cusco planetary "tarmac gear" which is 35/65. Only planetary open differentials or planetary LSD's (Torsen T-3) have an uneven torque split.
Understeering like a pig has more to do with the way the car's suspension is set up than just the AWD.
FWI - Most VW group vehicles use the torsen or planetary worm gear center diffs as well, such as Audis with quatro.
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Dialcaliper
Well-known member
Sadly not - VW/Audi has really abused the "Quattro" and "4-motion" trademarks. All VW's use the Haldex coupling (even the Veyron, admittedly, a fancier one), and some Audis do as well.
The only Audi/VW cars to use the planetary T3 diff are the RS4, the new S4, and the A5/S5 and Q7. It's rumored that they may start using it on future 4, 6 and 8 platform cars.
All other Audi's right now use a standard Torsen T2
Here's the 2007 Torsen application chart
The only Audi/VW cars to use the planetary T3 diff are the RS4, the new S4, and the A5/S5 and Q7. It's rumored that they may start using it on future 4, 6 and 8 platform cars.
All other Audi's right now use a standard Torsen T2
Here's the 2007 Torsen application chart
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I don't know what to say, so much "Information".
I guess I'll be the only one in here that believes that there is 60% front torque, and 40% rear torque.
Our cars are FWD first.
You can't power-oversteer a Mitsubishi stock.
Look at how the engine sits (If you haven't already /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
The Viscous Coupler has Variable distribution since is does not use a mechanism to lock, but rather silicone fluid. And depending on the temp, is when the unit will lockup.
If you have driven a WRX in the snow, and then directly driven a DSM/GVR4 after, you can feel the difference.
Mitsubishi= FWD car with Rear assist.
The Mitsu will understeer a bit until you go WOT and full diff lock.
Subaru= RWD car with front assist. The Subaru oversteers on and off the gas.
One reason being the ridiculous weight transfer of placing the boxer engine way past the front struts.
The other reason is that the Subaru is RWD mostly, and then adds front torque mechanically much like a GT-R Skyline does.
And of course, I can't leave out, you can obviously totally change the way a car handles with Weight Transfer adjustment (Suspension) and front and rear torque bias (Differentials)
That's my overview. And now my head hurts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I guess I'll be the only one in here that believes that there is 60% front torque, and 40% rear torque.
Our cars are FWD first.
You can't power-oversteer a Mitsubishi stock.
Look at how the engine sits (If you haven't already /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
The Viscous Coupler has Variable distribution since is does not use a mechanism to lock, but rather silicone fluid. And depending on the temp, is when the unit will lockup.
If you have driven a WRX in the snow, and then directly driven a DSM/GVR4 after, you can feel the difference.
Mitsubishi= FWD car with Rear assist.
The Mitsu will understeer a bit until you go WOT and full diff lock.
Subaru= RWD car with front assist. The Subaru oversteers on and off the gas.
One reason being the ridiculous weight transfer of placing the boxer engine way past the front struts.
The other reason is that the Subaru is RWD mostly, and then adds front torque mechanically much like a GT-R Skyline does.
And of course, I can't leave out, you can obviously totally change the way a car handles with Weight Transfer adjustment (Suspension) and front and rear torque bias (Differentials)
That's my overview. And now my head hurts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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kartorium
Well-known member
Quote:
I don't know what to say, so much "Information".
I guess I'll be the only one in here that believes that there is 60% front torque, and 40% rear torque.
Our cars are FWD first.
You can't power-oversteer a Mitsubishi stock.
Look at how the engine sits (If you haven't already )
The Viscous Coupler has Variable distribution since is does not use a mechanism to lock, but rather silicone fluid. And depending on the temp, is when the unit will lockup.
I remember power oversteering the galant in snow when it was stock.
What the hell does engine orientation in the bay have to do with torque distribution????! So the engine is sideways, must be a fwd bias... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Dialcaliper addressed the slight variations in possible distribution in his post, so to some degree yes what you are saying is correct.
You are off a bit. This thread is about torque split, not how the differential locks up. Pulling some random ass numbers out of your head and saying 60/40 all because the front gets power first is, well, wrong. My point is; sure you can say the front tires might get power *first* in certain situations, but once the fluid locks things up the split is 50/50. Once the vicsous coupling has done its job it doesn't lock things in a 60/40 distribution.
Anyways, rethink things a bit and you'll understand what I'm saying. Basically you've strayed to arguing lockup characteristics and that they have made the car 60/40.
I don't know what to say, so much "Information".
I guess I'll be the only one in here that believes that there is 60% front torque, and 40% rear torque.
Our cars are FWD first.
You can't power-oversteer a Mitsubishi stock.
Look at how the engine sits (If you haven't already )
The Viscous Coupler has Variable distribution since is does not use a mechanism to lock, but rather silicone fluid. And depending on the temp, is when the unit will lockup.
I remember power oversteering the galant in snow when it was stock.
What the hell does engine orientation in the bay have to do with torque distribution????! So the engine is sideways, must be a fwd bias... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
Dialcaliper addressed the slight variations in possible distribution in his post, so to some degree yes what you are saying is correct.
You are off a bit. This thread is about torque split, not how the differential locks up. Pulling some random ass numbers out of your head and saying 60/40 all because the front gets power first is, well, wrong. My point is; sure you can say the front tires might get power *first* in certain situations, but once the fluid locks things up the split is 50/50. Once the vicsous coupling has done its job it doesn't lock things in a 60/40 distribution.
Anyways, rethink things a bit and you'll understand what I'm saying. Basically you've strayed to arguing lockup characteristics and that they have made the car 60/40.
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I kind of understand what you are getting at, and you get to a point what I am trying to say.
Yes we get 50/50, but not all the time, under every condition.
Watch the car in that launch video...
Yes we get 50/50, but not all the time, under every condition.
Watch the car in that launch video...
Dialcaliper
Well-known member
Torque split has nothing to do with weight distribution, engine orientation, suspension, etc, and everything to do with mechanical gearing in the differential and drivetrain. A bevel gear differential is by nature, a 50/50 split, not including the biasing effects of any lockup/LSD device.
Also, I'm not sure which Subaru you are talking about, but all of them, even the STi, understeer like a pig from the factory. The STi does have a smidge of power-on oversteer because of the unequal torque split, but nothing compared to a RWD car.
The STi does *not* have "front assist". It has a fixed 35/65 split center planetary gear diff that is operating full-time, coupled to an electronic clutch that can lock the front and rear axles with an identical arrangement to our VCU or the Evo's ACD. The Skyline does not have a full-time center diff, just an electronic clutch between front and rear.
To put it another way, an Evo VIII ACD with a Cusco planetary center (35/65) would be functionally identical to the Subaru's DCCD system (except for the controls, sensors, tuning, etc)
4WD cars don't really have the same kind of direct power-on over/understeer that 2WD cars do - almost all of the handling behavior is passive, and due to suspension and weight balance.
Also, I'm not sure which Subaru you are talking about, but all of them, even the STi, understeer like a pig from the factory. The STi does have a smidge of power-on oversteer because of the unequal torque split, but nothing compared to a RWD car.
The STi does *not* have "front assist". It has a fixed 35/65 split center planetary gear diff that is operating full-time, coupled to an electronic clutch that can lock the front and rear axles with an identical arrangement to our VCU or the Evo's ACD. The Skyline does not have a full-time center diff, just an electronic clutch between front and rear.
To put it another way, an Evo VIII ACD with a Cusco planetary center (35/65) would be functionally identical to the Subaru's DCCD system (except for the controls, sensors, tuning, etc)
4WD cars don't really have the same kind of direct power-on over/understeer that 2WD cars do - almost all of the handling behavior is passive, and due to suspension and weight balance.
Quoting Dialcaliper:
Also, I'm not sure which Subaru you are talking about, but all of them, even the STi, understeer like a pig from the factory. The STi does have a smidge of power-on oversteer because of the unequal torque split, but nothing compared to a RWD car.
I can't agree with this statement, although your other points are relevant.
In the snow, which would reveal Diff performance the easiest due to lack of adhesion, the Mitsu understeers, and the Subaru oversteers uncontrollably in my experience.
I drove a bone stock WRX last winter with 16" Blizzacks.
Getting on the gas it oversteered, getting off the gas was worse, resulting in a snap oversteer condition.
Ha anyone ever lifted the throttle mid corner in their AWD mitsubishi in the snow and thought, "OH god, we're going off the road, and there is nothing I can do about it!"?
I never have. Its why I drive a mitsubishi and not a subaru.
I will agree ultimately (And on topic) that Mitsubishi are 50/50 split, and thats why these cars are so sure-footed in the snow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Also, I'm not sure which Subaru you are talking about, but all of them, even the STi, understeer like a pig from the factory. The STi does have a smidge of power-on oversteer because of the unequal torque split, but nothing compared to a RWD car.
I can't agree with this statement, although your other points are relevant.
In the snow, which would reveal Diff performance the easiest due to lack of adhesion, the Mitsu understeers, and the Subaru oversteers uncontrollably in my experience.
I drove a bone stock WRX last winter with 16" Blizzacks.
Getting on the gas it oversteered, getting off the gas was worse, resulting in a snap oversteer condition.
Ha anyone ever lifted the throttle mid corner in their AWD mitsubishi in the snow and thought, "OH god, we're going off the road, and there is nothing I can do about it!"?
I never have. Its why I drive a mitsubishi and not a subaru.
I will agree ultimately (And on topic) that Mitsubishi are 50/50 split, and thats why these cars are so sure-footed in the snow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
turbowop
Well-known member
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
turbowop
Well-known member
Mythbusters would laugh at this. You can look at the damn ratios to see whether or not it's an even split. Car doesn't even need to be present.
why doesn't someone send like Shep or another tranny builder an email asking?
turbowop
Well-known member
This is so f***ing stupid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
slugsgomoo
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure I answered this with 100% accuracy exactly two weeks ago /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
a lot of the understeer characteristics you're seeing is the shitty suspension design & maintenance relative to modern cars like the WRX/Evo
a lot of the understeer characteristics you're seeing is the shitty suspension design & maintenance relative to modern cars like the WRX/Evo
Brunoboy
Well-known member
Quoting Spott:
Wow all this does kinda make my head hurt. I think we should send this off to mythbusters and they can officially test it for us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
they are only 20 minutes from my house lol
Wow all this does kinda make my head hurt. I think we should send this off to mythbusters and they can officially test it for us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
they are only 20 minutes from my house lol
turbowop
Well-known member
Quoting slugsgomoo:
I'm pretty sure I answered this with 100% accuracy exactly two weeks ago /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
a lot of the understeer characteristics you're seeing is the shitty suspension design & maintenance relative to modern cars like the WRX/Evo
I dunno, Sluggs. Maybe you should email Hotbits or Tein or Ohlins to ask them if suspension causes any of those handling characteristics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif
I'm pretty sure I answered this with 100% accuracy exactly two weeks ago /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/uhh.gif
a lot of the understeer characteristics you're seeing is the shitty suspension design & maintenance relative to modern cars like the WRX/Evo
I dunno, Sluggs. Maybe you should email Hotbits or Tein or Ohlins to ask them if suspension causes any of those handling characteristics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hsugh.gif
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iLLeffeKt vr-4
Well-known member
Quoting kryger:
why doesn't someone send like Shep or another tranny builder an email asking?
WTF for? It has been answered here by another member /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
why doesn't someone send like Shep or another tranny builder an email asking?
WTF for? It has been answered here by another member /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
