Clutches

[vr4play]

So I have killed my clutch once again. For the past 10 years I have aways ran ACT clutches with Mitsu street disc as the ACT disc always threw the springs out. 2900 lbs pressure plate has always treated me good. I finally found the sack to turn the boost up on E85 and think I have found the next week link in the drivetrain. My first clutch in this car lasted 5500 miles. Not bad for a car that is mainly only auto-x'd. The one that I just installed last year has only lasted about 500. Partially because I went to an event about a month ago and caught a charlie horse in my leg while launching. Slipped it a little too much. I thought it would be ok as I got out of it as soon as I knew the tires weren't spinning. Stunk like a dead animal but I drove it back and forth to my house for a week to clean it up and at the last auto-x without any launches it's starting to slip in 2nd. It will not hold any kind of a launch so it's officially done for. Every time I have installed something other than an ACT I have had problems even though I know they have there fair share as well. I was debating getting a clutchnet disc and throwing it in with my current PP and flywheel as long as it's not completely smoked. This is the disc I am looking at click I have used there disc in customers cars and have been pleased. I was also looking at getting a TMZ performance Southbend Clutch. I've heard they have taken care of the problems they were having. This is the one I'm looking at click the South Bend Clutch SUPER Heavy Duty TZ/FE-Series Clutch Assembly for the1G and 2G FWD/AWD DSM. I have also been contemplating the new ACT twin disc as most of the reviews for it have been good and it's supposed to be easy to slip and launch. Does anyone have any experience with any of these and if so what was your opinion? Thanks

 

[cheekychimp]

What sort of power and torque figures are you making? That's going to be an important consideration in offering advice and/or recommendations because it's pointless suggesting a clutch that's good for 300 whp if you are laying down 650.

I've been using a Centreforce Dual Friction clutch in my daily for a while now and I have been very, very pleased with it. They seem to be good for 250-350 whp. I have heard that you can swap out the Centreforce disc for a TZ series Kevlar disc and it significantly increases the holding power of the clutch and obviously doesn't increase pedal pressure which is easily as light as stock. Drive ability is supposed to be very good and people have reported it to hold up to about 450 ft/lbs of torque.

The next step up from that is the TMZ SS series pressure plate mated to the same disk. I think that might be the clutch turbowop is running in his car. I rode in that car recently and it seemed to hold the power of the FP 3052 without any issue whatsoever. You might want to check with Mark that I haven't got that wrong but I am pretty sure if that is the clutch he is using he'll be able to recommend that.

Paul.

 

[donniekak]

In any modded dsm/vr4 I only use puck disks. The clutch is small, and the only way to get any other material to grip is to use a super heavy pressure plate that try's to ram the crank through the thrust bearing every time you press the pedal. The Kevlar disks are junk. They may hold ok from a roll, but slip on a launch and get some heat into it, and it will slip for the rest of the night.

 

[vr4play]

I haven't dyno'd the car yet but I'm guessing 400-450 at the wheels with a total weight of about 3180 with driver and fuel. Its gone 11.77 on the old tune and motor and it feels much faster now than it did then. I had a centerforce long ago and it wouldn't hold from the first launch. I stay away from pucks because of the aggressive engagement. I run big slicks for auto-x and need some slip form the line.

 

[turbowop]

Quoting cheekychimp:


The next step up from that is the TMZ SS series pressure plate mated to the same disk. I think that might be the clutch turbowop is running in his car. I rode in that car recently and it seemed to hold the power of the FP 3052 without any issue whatsoever. You might want to check with Mark that I haven't got that wrong but I am pretty sure if that is the clutch he is using he'll be able to recommend that.





Yes, I have a TMZ SS-X pressure plate with a hybrid kevlar/ceramic sprung disk. I love it.

 

[curtis]

click me for PTT


I used a south bend dxd 2 or 3 times, centerforce dual friction and a ACT but I'll never run anything different than a PTT twin. I was in the same boat as you, once a year I was installing a new unit. The PTT puts the power down, lives and no pedal pressure....true race clutch not a super heavy pressure plate wearing out a trust bearing and trying to make itself into something its not. Yea pricey but I've seen people run QM and PTT units for years hard in 10 second street cars and when inspected have only lost .008 of disk over 3 years of abuse.


If you've ever driven a high HP high torque V8 like a Mustang or Camaro you'll remember looking back and seeing where the car was dusting the tires and a serious shake in the car when accelerating, where it was shaking the tires. My car started acting just like that the moment I installed mine. Plus..... I called them up and there flywheel machine was down, his wife called me on Monday saying they worked all weekend to get it up and said the machine was really and I will get the first one out of the machine and they could ship today. I gave her my credit card number and then got a tracking number a few hours later. I then got a call from her saying the new guy they were training couldn't remember if he had put my disks in the press that presses all the rivets all at once and the disks could be out of spec .001 or less. She said her husband said it would be perfect or not run and they were drop shipping a second setup express to me just encase it wasn't done and to install it and just put the label on the first one and ship it back. Not to many people will ship out a 1200 dollar clutch to someone they don't know in hopes they'll be honest enough to ship it back. A few days later she called to say the first set was tested checked and had been done correctly. They will forever have my business, because they're one of the few car parts companies I've ever dealt with that pay attention like its an aircraft part and someone is going to be flying in it and could die.

 

[turbowop]

I liked my QM at first, but grew to hate it after street driving it for way too long. Of all the things I've done to my car, that was the most "unstreetable" mod ever. It ruined my car. No amount of fast shifting, quick revving, or heat tolerating can overcome the annoyance of chatter, stalling, drivetrain reverberation, or noise. Not to mention the fact that they need to be ran for what they're made for: racing. Street driving them is bad for the disks/plates as it wears them out even faster due to all the normal stuff that comes with driving on the street, like stop lights and intersections, parking lots, leaving intersections on an uphill incline, etc. They're just not a good choice for the street, IMO.

And this is coming from a guy that street drives a car with a welded center diff, which some people can't stand either. So you know I can handle a bit of harshness. Though you won't catch me driving thousands of miles down the freeway with a downpipe only exhaust and no AC in the summer heat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

I really don't think single disks are as bad as people make them out to be when it comes to shifting. As long as the trans is in good order, as well as the hydraulics for the clutch and proper adjustment of the linkage, it should be able to shift up past 8k without issue.

 

[Street Surgeon]

I've used the following clutches and have this to say about them:

ACT 2600 w/their street disc - The clutch had heavy (relatively speaking) pedal pressure, was easy to drive, and handled everything my bolt-on AWD 2G could muster with ease /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It was a great clutch but then again I was running this back in '03/'04 so this was before they revised their sprung discs and all hell broke loose. I've heard that they've since then fixed that problem but anyway...

PTT ceremetallic twin - Steve Fox is a pretty cool guy who will talk your ear off, he's definitely an engineer though and he has 1,000,000 reasons why his clutch won't last or has problems and all of them are mitsu design flaws, install flaws, or your fault /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The clutch had light/medium pedal pressure, and was easy to drive (with a 2G clutch pedal reservoir and fwd slave cylinder). I only used this clutch to break in the car though so I can't speak to how long it will last or hold power. My gripe with this clutch is that it sounded like the tcase was empty on decel or when the drivetrain wasn't loaded. It was..... Very loud. He blamed the 2.3l, he blamed the fluidampr, he blamed the inherent design of the mitsu trans, he blamed the motor machinist etc. I called and briefly spoke with shep who told me that's just how they are. I also didn't like all the rigamaroo you have to go through to get it working. Back then you had to press on your own ring-gear, maybe use the isuzu slave cylinder to make it work better, measure out the clutch finger runout so you don't over extend the fingers and destroy the clutch, rig up a pedal stop, blah blah. He didn't even use to heat treat the hubs and couldn't figure out why his clutch destroyed so many trans input shafts!!! Anyways, cool company, decent guy, there are better clutch options out there now.

Tilton twin carbon/carbon - I just have one in a box, after the PTT debacle I'm leery of running another twin but if my TMZ can't handle the power I'll put it in and give a better review /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TMZ super duper single - Looks nice, is installed, haven't run it yet, will provide details once I get the car moving /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[gvr4ever]

Quoting turbowop:
I liked my QM at first, but grew to hate it after street driving it for way too long. Of all the things I've done to my car, that was the most "unstreetable" mod ever. It ruined my car. No amount of fast shifting, quick revving, or heat tolerating can overcome the annoyance of chatter, stalling, drivetrain reverberation, or noise. Not to mention the fact that they need to be ran for what they're made for: racing. Street driving them is bad for the disks/plates as it wears them out even faster due to all the normal stuff that comes with driving on the street, like stop lights and intersections, parking lots, leaving intersections on an uphill incline, etc. They're just not a good choice for the street, IMO.

And this is coming from a guy that street drives a car with a welded center diff, which some people can't stand either. So you know I can handle a bit of harshness. Though you won't catch me driving thousands of miles down the freeway with a downpipe only exhaust and no AC in the summer heat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rofl.gif

I really don't think single disks are as bad as people make them out to be when it comes to shifting. As long as the trans is in good order, as well as the hydraulics for the clutch and proper adjustment of the linkage, it should be able to shift up past 8k without issue.



I had a ACT 2600 with a ACT street disk once. After rebuilding the master and slave clutch cylinder, new clutch fork, new SS clutch flex line, it still didn't have a whole lot of room on the floor. With the weight, chatter, I grew to hate that thing. To each their own though.

I'm not sure its really possible to have a street and racing clutch all in one. If I was going to try myself, I think I'd try a centerforce clutch with a disk that could take more heat. The centerforce has great pedal feel to it and is much easier on the clutch system. IMO the ACT 2600 is borderline too heavy without maybe upgrading the master and slave beyond mitsu parts. They can barely keep up, even in great shape.

I suspect that ACTs manufacturing has not been exactly the same throughout the years. Mine was stupid heavy and other people who felt it asked I could drive with that. I've driven other cars with a 2100 and it was much lighter.

 

[GreenGSX]

I've had a number of clutches in the One Lap VR4. When it was making sub-400whp the ACT with a street disc did the job. It is easy to drive but a little heavy on the leg. When I went to the 2.3L I switched to a ACT 2600/sprung 6-puck. That clutch surprised me in how easy it was to drive. I expected lots of chatter and problems but it was only slightly harder to drive than the 2600/street disc. That clutch started slipping on my at 25psi which is 450whp/455tq (mustang dyno). I will say this ALL of my ACT clutches I've had in my 15 years of trying to go fast have been really bad at high RPM shifting. I used a Exedy stage 3 clutch in the car which was a stock pressure plate and a 3-puck sprung disc and it shifted like a Honda. It couldn't hold any power but it made me realize that my shifting issues were not transmission but those crappy ACT clutches.

We recently picked up Competition Clutch as a sponsor so they sent me a stage 4 clutch to try out. Its in the car now and I got to drive it at the last CSCS Time Attack in Canada last weekend. I had about 1 mile of break-in time before I rolled it onto the track. It held 25psi without slipping and was much lighter on the leg. CC tells me that's because they moved the reinforcement ring that's welded on the pressure plate further out and that gives them the same clamping power with a better mechanical advantage. It also shifted much, much better than ANY ACT clutch I've used and I was able to shift near 8000rpm with ease. I have another 2-days at the track coming up in a week so I'll have another chance to test it out.

Next year CC is sending me a twin-disc so I'll have a chance to see what that's all about.

 

[JCorbo25]

I used a Competition Clutch on my Evo 8 and went with there 'slightly better than stock' kevlar/metallic disc. That thing couldn't hold a launch for sh*t and after 10k miles was done (only 3 failed launches!). That's with ~400hp (350whp Mustang).

 

[bmxr152]

Ive used act 2600, spec stage 3, and an ebay stage 3 all with failures. Most every one threw the springs or started slipping on launches. The only clutch i have had success with is my clutchnet stage 3 clutch. The springs are fully contained and even with over 480hp and 415ft lbs i have never had it slip on a launch. It is a dual friction full face design which i wanted since im still daily driving my car. I would highly reccomend this clutch as i have been nothing but pleased with the quality.

 

[vr4play]

Thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to try out this clutchnet disc with my 2900lbs pressure plate and see how it works. I don't know how but the 2900lbs pressure plate has a lighter pedal than the 2600. I've heard that there is a 3200lbs pressure plate and the pedal is even lighter. I think they moved the leverage point to get the extra clamping and that gave a mechanical advantage to the pedal. I am really interested in trying out one of the South Bend clutches but I spent too much money rebuilding the engine to make it to the shootout. If I can keep my wife from spending all my budget for next year I may try the ACT twin disc. I have heard good things about it on the ecmlink forum but it's fairly expensive even with my discount.

 

[Spyder]

Hey Paul, Is this the clutch you are using?

Personally I have an act 2600 in my daily driver and I don't like it at all. Pedal is too heavy for a daily. I personally would prefer a center force. I have driven one in other vehicles and liked it a lot.

 

[cheekychimp]

Didn't you sell me a clutch? I actually have a spare CFDF sitting in my crate and this one that is on the car. I thought that the part no. was DF536010 but I can't find that on their site maybe they discontinued that model and replaced it with the one you listed.

I think this is what I have web page

Edit: It is on their site if you search it by part no. web page

 

[birdman24]

Currently I have sprung 6 puck Spec stage 3 and a Fidanza replaceable friction flywheel. When I first bought it I just knew I would love it but after finishing my build and trying to go out for a test drive, I quickly found out why so many people hate the engagement of puck clutches. Originally it felt like the clutch was an on/off switch, but now that I've put roughly 3,000 miles on this set up I have grown use to the clutch and I actually like it. It holds the power and so far every launch.

No idea how much HP and TQ my car is producing but I have a fully built engine with increased compression and an Hx40. Engine was built to handle 9k and so far the highest Ive shifted was 8k which was smooth and quick. My only complaint with the clutch is the engagement since if it is not slipped right the entire car will chatter from the aggressiveness of the clutch. Too fast and the car bogs or stalls, to slow and it chatters like crazy.

I daily drive my car during the summer and the pedal pressure is decently stiff but its not bothersome. I have however noticed that when I get into a customers vehicle at work (VW dealership) that it feels like my foot is going to go through the floor until I get use to the light pedal.

Terence

 

[turbowop]

Quoting gvr4ever:


I had a ACT 2600 with a ACT street disk once. After rebuilding the master and slave clutch cylinder, new clutch fork, new SS clutch flex line, it still didn't have a whole lot of room on the floor.



Do you know which slave cylinder you were using at the time?

I've said this so many times in clutch threads: make sure you use the slave with the 3/4" piston (anodized red). If you use the 13/16" piston version (anodized green and came stock on '91 GVR4's) you're probably going to have disengagement issues because you won't get as much travel out of it when depressing the clutch pedal like you would with the smaller bore unit.