Stronger axles while retaining 4WS?

Fourdoor · Nov 16, 2023

I know that you can just delete the 4WS system and upgrade to 4bolt rear end and axles from a 1G DSM (did that in late 90's on prior GVR-4). I was thinking about getting another GVR4, but I actually just won an auction for a 3000GT VR-4 Spyder. So, this is more of a "what if" question to see if anyone was able to do upgrades without losing the 4WS. One possibility I considered was seeing if the axle shaft itself could be replaced (between the existing CV joints) with a stronger one (from 4 bolt rear end, or aftermarket) rather than replacing the entire axle.

Later,

Keith

gvr4ever · Nov 16, 2023

The internet is void of information it once held. Pretty should you could get a 3Bolt LSD with AWS. As someone who recently got rid of AWS, I feel like it was more of a gimmick than something that was actually needed. Near the limit, it was my understanding that AWS could cause snap oversteer. Either way, I'm fine without it and I don't want it back. After all these years, it's just a failure point. I say, let her go.

raptorWagon · Dec 6, 2023

You can keep 4WS with a 4 bolt (after all, 90+ Evo Spec GVR4s had a 4 bolt and 4WS), you just need to utilize the stock gvr4 3 bolt housing. Swap the 4 bolt diff guts and everything into it. Mitsuturbo runs that exact setup and made a thread 13yrs ago on it. He's also resealed his 4ws in recent years, which negated mostly custom made seals to rebuild it as none of those bits are available either.

4WS 4 Bolt install with 4WS thread

MustGoFaster · Nov 29, 2024

As a person that learned to slalom a car in an autocross with 4WS, and then deleted it (Stealth TT, same system) I can tell you 4WS is not a gimmick. It for sure works, and changes the driving feel of the car when pushing the limits of grip. Most people aren't going to drive the cars hard enough to feel it. The best way I can describe it, is it makes weight transfer from side to side, at the rear of the car happen at the same time as the front of the car. That doesn't sound like much until you have to re-learn to drive a car because you got rid of it.

Since swapping the 4 bolt diff into the 3 bolt housing is an option as mentioned above, that is the way to go.

gvr4ever · Nov 29, 2024

MustGoFaster said:
As a person that learned to slalom a car in an autocross with 4WS, and then deleted it (Stealth TT, same system) I can tell you 4WS is not a gimmick. It for sure works, and changes the driving feel of the car when pushing the limits of grip. Most people aren't going to drive the cars hard enough to feel it. The best way I can describe it, is it makes weight transfer from side to side, at the rear of the car happen at the same time as the front of the car. That doesn't sound like much until you have to re-learn to drive a car because you got rid of it.

Since swapping the 4 bolt diff into the 3 bolt housing is an option as mentioned above, that is the way to go.

Didn't it only work above 30MPH? I enjoyed it for long sweeping curves on a HWY with stock suspension. I guess if you learned with a system, and got rid of it, it would feel different, but it barely turned the rear wheels.

MustGoFaster · Nov 29, 2024

You are correct, specs are on at/above 31mph and I think 1.5 or 2 degrees of steering angle. I just wanted to share my thoughts/experience with it, as I did notice it making a difference in certain situations. Most drivers won't notice it, but it does make a difference when changing direction.

936/1K has had it deleted. I will not be going thru the trouble to put it back in. But if I had it still I would keep it working.

GSTwithPSI · Nov 30, 2024

MustGoFaster said:
As a person that learned to slalom a car in an autocross with 4WS, and then deleted it (Stealth TT, same system) I can tell you 4WS is not a gimmick. It for sure works, and changes the driving feel of the car when pushing the limits of grip.

Go slalom in anything without 4WS, I promise you the result will be faster.

4WS is absolute dogshit for handling. The best thing you can do with the 4WS to get the car to handle better is delete it, then weld the trailing arms so they aren't flailing about, thereby eliminating the equally dogshit "active toe-control link" feature, which is essentially the rear toe-in/out constantly changing under accel/decel and during cornering.

A proper alignment that yields predictable handling is the A#1 key to being fast on the track. There's no possible way to achieve that with 4WS. Sure, you can keep 4WS and do fine, but you'll always achieve better results without.

I think Anthony still has 4WS on his Galant for some stupid reason @mitsuturbo. He Autocrosses the hell out of his car. Perhaps he can chime in. I think he was gonna trade up for a Lotus, though. Probably because it would handle better than a GVR4 w/ 4WS :rofl:

MustGoFaster · Dec 1, 2024

I have a C5Z that I autoX now, and driven plenty of others. I was more intending to say that it does something (other referenced it as a gimmick). The system in stock form, does work and does change the handling of the car. To say anything about it being faster would require some back to back testing. I think we can see in most forms of motorsport, 4WS is rarely implemented, so the weight to benefit ratio probably isn't there.

gvr4ever · Dec 2, 2024

I personally found the 4WS to be helpful on the HWY going around long curves with stock suspension. It seems to have reduced lean and made the car feel more stable. I can't fathom how that would help out in auto cross. Modern suspension and tires are going to help out WAY more than 80s tech a 4WS system. Gimmick might have been too harsh, but it is absolutely outdated. If 4WS was the secret to going around corners, all cars would still be using it.

Dialcaliper · Jan 20, 2025

gvr4ever said:
I personally found the 4WS to be helpful on the HWY going around long curves with stock suspension. It seems to have reduced lean and made the car feel more stable. I can't fathom how that would help out in auto cross. Modern suspension and tires are going to help out WAY more than 80s tech a 4WS system. Gimmick might have been too harsh, but it is absolutely outdated. If 4WS was the secret to going around corners, all cars would still be using it.

It's probably worth pointing out here that many current day Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini models currently are equipped with "rear axle steering" including many high performance models. For example, the 911 Turbo S and GT3 have had it since 2014 as well as the 918 Spyder. The Aventador, Huracan and Sian sport it as does the 12Cilindri. BMW has it on the current 7-series. Not worth mentioning but some SUVs from the same performance brands also have it.

These days its electromechanical actuators with computer control instead of hydraulic, but it is by no means a dead technology. The main benefit (besides lane change stability) is responsiveness initiating turns - you don't have to wait for the front to yaw before the rear tires gain slip angle and produce lateral force - the rear tires start producing lateral force at the same time as the front. The downside of course is that because the rear of the car doesn't "kick out" like a vehicle without it, it adds bias towards understeer that then needs to be tuned out, but then so does adding a limited slip diff. The main flaw in the VR-4 system is that the transition point around 30 mph is somewhat abrupt once the pump on the rear diff comes up to pressure. I almost think it would be better to have it run off an electric power steering pump (MR2?) and switched on and off manually.

This list has grown in recent years:

Category:Vehicles with four-wheel steering - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

gvr4ever · Jan 30, 2025

Dialcaliper said:
It's probably worth pointing out here that many current day Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini models currently are equipped with "rear axle steering" including many high performance models. For example, the 911 Turbo S and GT3 have had it since 2014 as well as the 918 Spyder. The Aventador, Huracan and Sian sport it as does the 12Cilindri. BMW has it on the current 7-series. Not worth mentioning but some SUVs from the same performance brands also have it.

These days its electromechanical actuators with computer control instead of hydraulic, but it is by no means a dead technology. The main benefit (besides lane change stability) is responsiveness initiating turns - you don't have to wait for the front to yaw before the rear tires gain slip angle and produce lateral force - the rear tires start producing lateral force at the same time as the front. The downside of course is that because the rear of the car doesn't "kick out" like a vehicle without it, it adds bias towards understeer that then needs to be tuned out, but then so does adding a limited slip diff. The main flaw in the VR-4 system is that the transition point around 30 mph is somewhat abrupt once the pump on the rear diff comes up to pressure. I almost think it would be better to have it run off an electric power steering pump (MR2?) and switched on and off manually.

This list has grown in recent years:

Category:Vehicles with four-wheel steering - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was thinking more of the continuation of late 80s and early 90s AWS. Honda had AWS on the Prelude and Mitsubishi has it on the Galant and 3000GT VR4s, but to the best of my knowledge, they didn't continue it for EVO line, but they did use rear active YAW. Not counting modern hyper cars, that has absolutely nothing to do with what a Galant VR4 has, I don't think it's a realistic comparison. As far as Lamborghini goes, I thought they were working more on active rear alignment, not steering. Modern cars in the same class never carried over that feature.

Dialcaliper · Feb 2, 2025

gvr4ever said:
I was thinking more of the continuation of late 80s and early 90s AWS. Honda had AWS on the Prelude and Mitsubishi has it on the Galant and 3000GT VR4s, but to the best of my knowledge, they didn't continue it for EVO line, but they did use rear active YAW. Not counting modern hyper cars, that has absolutely nothing to do with what a Galant VR4 has, I don't think it's a realistic comparison. As far as Lamborghini goes, I thought they were working more on active rear alignment, not steering. Modern cars in the same class never carried over that feature.

Correct that Mitsubishi abandoned the system and eventually brought in AYC, but the two systems don’t address the same behavior.

The modern 4WS systems absolutely perform a similar function to the older (and cruder) hydraulic system on our cars. Rear toe adjustment towards the inside to improve steering performance. They’re just a lot more sophisticated now (unsurprisingly), as electronic control enables speed based and other adjustments to improve stability.

Lamborghini’s system also does a whole lot more, like adjusting total toe, and independently adjusting camber as well.

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Stronger axles while retaining 4WS?

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